Author Topic: P3D V5 - Layering Problem  (Read 4582 times)

Doug

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P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« on: July 01, 2020, 12:10:58 PM »
In the BWEP area where we use only Global Base/Vector, I'm seeing something strange, and it has t be a layering problem of some kind.  Everything looks fine at Healy River until I add Magic Bus, then the RTMM scenery doesn't mask over the original scenery, it lays on top of the original scenery with the original showing through. I'm seeing the same problem with many of the RTMM locations we have put into BWEP.

RTMM Locations (like Magic Bus)
RTMM Libraries
FTX Entries
Tongass Fjords
Open LC
.....
Africa
Vector entries

It sure looks like an old Vector Elevation problem, but I enable/disable vector and the problem stays the same, so that sort of tells me the problem isn't Vector?

Anybody got an idea?

« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 12:40:36 PM by Doug »

stiletto2

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2020, 01:41:10 PM »
Hi Doug,

Don't think this a a scenery order issue.  As you know, I don't really fly outside of Orbx regions (which lock down their meshes/elevations)  because of the potential elevation instability we have seen in the past (e.g. different pilots mesh etc.).   In this case, I think that the instability you are seeing is the result of the massive updates/changes that Lockheed made to the P3D v5 airport data.  This result is probably what is keeping Orbx from updating the Global Airport freeware package since so many airports have to be redone.   

Here is how Orbx summed up some of the issues that will cause conflict between 3rd party airport scenery and P3D v5 default airports:

Because all default airports have been made new and thus buildings, structures, and objects shifted around, it's likely that any third-party add-on that doesn't include an airport-wide object exclusion will now display duplicate or overlapping objects.

Airports that have had their ICAOs changed in the v5 database will need to be adjusted by us accordingly (in the Regions, in the Global Pack, as well as stand-alone airports), otherwise there will be two airports displayed in the same locations. There's no official change list from LM so it'll take us a bit to find and fix them all.

Not a bug but rather a design choice: LM no longer includes artificial smoothed areas in their terrain mesh files around airport flattens. This was done to allow for the implementation of sloped runways (though there are only a few in the default v5). However, this also means that many default airports (outside our Regions) will now have noticeable edges around their perimeters, similar to the effect when installing third-party terrain mesh files. Within our FTX Regions, our enhanced airports will continue to be properly blended.


I am guessing you are seeing the reality of the description above.

Rod

Doug

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2020, 01:53:14 PM »
Rod. That makes sense to what I am seeing.  Nothing seems to explain this  traditionally. Can we throw a flatten at these airports and bring them in line?  BWEP is almost not usable in the northern areas.  Anything we could do to artificially correct the problems?

5BK always had an unusual feature. Water sloping violently up to the airport.  The vector elevation tool would flatten all if that out.  Now,  with or without vector,  that anomaly is there.  We spent hours getting these airports in shape and now they destroyed it with maybe no way for us to recover?  Is glad I spent so much money for Vector. Maybe time for a refund?

Ill give any idea a try.

Doug

PS. Is anybody else but me seeing this?   Notice the sloping water coming up to the airport.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 02:17:10 PM by Doug »

Doug

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 02:26:27 PM »
And here is a screenshot of the 5BK airport area with NO RTMM ... this is why we spent so much money on Global Base and Vector?  This is just poor workmanship. (Time for a BIG refund!)

kaha

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2020, 03:28:49 PM »
Yes Doug, that's a pitty! The question is how much ORBX will do about it and if they service P3D in the future. Could be that future will not be so bright for ORBX.

I also thought that LM and ORBX would have worked together much closer for V5. What we have now is a mess and P3D facing MSFS2020 is like a rabbit facing a snake (not sure if you use that phrase in English, we do in German).

I'm happy and thankful if you and the team somehow can keep RTMM stuff working on top of V5 in the future.

Karl
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Doug

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2020, 04:24:53 PM »
It is "early" in this discovery, but from what I can see, the problem seems to be on things that are outside of our normal area ...meaning outside of PFJ, PNW, Tongass, SAK, etc. As soon as you go north of the SAK area, troubles begin.  It's not just the airports, they've messed with the terrain up there everywhere.  If you go to Lake Louise Lodge, you'll see the water runway "dug into" the water there and the water level for that lake is about 2 meters higher than it should be, flooding the shoreline.  The pipeline seems to be wrecked north of SAK too.

Unfortunately, we literally spent HOURS and HOURS on fixing up and making airports for that northern section of BWEP ... and I think all that work is now ruined.

I'd like to hear from Holger on this problem as it relates to us ... is there a way to "recover" somehow ... perhaps a special flatten in an airport area?  I'm not one to give up easily, but this really brought down a well-engineered house of cards in those northern areas.

What I need is for some more "eyes" on this ... are you folks seeing what I'm seeing?  If you look at Healy River airport, Black Rapids, and Lake Louise, you probably will see what I'm seeing. But I'd like to know just for the purposes of figuring out if there is anything to be done. When folks have a chance, take a look and let me know what you see . . .

Doug
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 04:26:45 PM by Doug »

stiletto2

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2020, 05:09:52 PM »
Rod. That makes sense to what I am seeing.  Nothing seems to explain this  traditionally. Can we throw a flatten at these airports and bring them in line?  BWEP is almost not usable in the northern areas.  Anything we could do to artificially correct the problems?

5BK always had an unusual feature. Water sloping violently up to the airport.  The vector elevation tool would flatten all if that out.  Now,  with or without vector,  that anomaly is there.  We spent hours getting these airports in shape and now they destroyed it with maybe no way for us to recover?  Is glad I spent so much money for Vector. Maybe time for a refund?

Ill give any idea a try.

Doug

PS. Is anybody else but me seeing this?   Notice the sloping water coming up to the airport.

Hi Doug,

Since I never worked on modifying airports (don't know ADE), I am a little out of my depth.  You almost have to approach each location as a new place to be "tamed".  Flattens should work, I think a new ADE would be required since Lockheed changed the airport elevation etc.  Personally, I think it is Lockheed who made the big changes.  Orbx has made many, many changes to their existing payware airports to accommodate the massive airport data changes that Lockheed made in P3Dv5.  Orbx is doing all this at no charge to their users.  That is quite impressive.

I can't say much about the Orbx Global products as I don't use them.

Rod

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2020, 05:14:54 PM »
This is a real mess......I can really unterstand your frustration. There have been so much hours of work put into BWEP and the surrounding airfields.....

I have already done only a few small hops arounds PAFA short after release of v5 HF1, also before installing the new orbx vector „light“.
I noticed a lot of roads in the wilderness, which I guess are based on the updated v5 databases. It looked strange to me. I cannot believe there‘s really such a huge road system in alaska north of Fairbanks.....

I will check some BWEP destinations the next days....


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nbrich1

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2020, 05:53:51 PM »
Ditto, will run the bwep next week.
Regards from Toronto, Canada. Home Airport CYYZ.
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Doug

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2020, 08:22:23 PM »
Just for "fun" (if you call it that), I took out both Vector and Global Base (of course all the LC stuff too). The pic below is the result. I expected the water to disappear, etc. But the basic terrain structure has changed.

I'm wondering if Global and Vector have anything to do with this. The problems remain the same, this sure looks like a P3D V5 "improvement".

A question I have. Why are all our airports (inside ORBX areas) still ok? No problems like this at Misty's Place or any other of the 50 some I visited last week making detailed waypoints. Did they "not" mess with the terrain inside our ORBX areas?  The pipeline above SAK is totally disjointed, but just checking from K55 (Thompson Pass) north for many miles, it is still perfect.  Why isn't is screwed up in SAK.  Again, I don't think this is a vector problem at all.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 08:45:20 PM by Doug »

nbrich1

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2020, 08:57:09 PM »
Vector doesn't effect any of the elevations in P3DV5 at all. It isn't global. It's the P3Dv5 landclass or base layer s that gave affected this. Really the orbx products haven't changed much at all from v4 to v5.. but P3Dv5 sure has. it has new updated bases and terrain and updated elevation.

So the sim has changed.. hence there was no need or requirement to put elevation adjustments in orbx vector for P3Dv5 ( whereas is still is part of vector for P3Dv4x.
Regards from Toronto, Canada. Home Airport CYYZ.
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stiletto2

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2020, 08:09:46 AM »

A question I have. Why are all our airports (inside ORBX areas) still ok? No problems like this at Misty's Place or any other of the 50 some I visited last week making detailed waypoints. Did they "not" mess with the terrain inside our ORBX areas?  The pipeline above SAK is totally disjointed, but just checking from K55 (Thompson Pass) north for many miles, it is still perfect.  Why isn't is screwed up in SAK.  Again, I don't think this is a vector problem at all.

Orbx regions provide their own high level mesh, textures, landclass, xcludes, airport elevation detail etc. which overrides the P3Dv5 defaults in the entire region.  That is why the Global products had no effect in the Orbx regions.  The Global products themselves offered new textures, landclass more appropriate for each local area and more accurate rivers, lakes, coastlines, powerlines and updated airport elevations for areas outside of the Orbx regions.  Since Lockheed completely redid the globe in P3Dv5 including 24,000 airports and many things that Vector used to do, it is like getting a revised default elevation and terrain feature set, including revised airports for all areas outside of the Orbx regions.   

That is why most 3rd party addons outside of the Orbx regions now have to be revised.  This problem hit Orbx the hardest with their enormous freeware Global airport pack which provided many airport outside of the Orbx regions based on Orbx Global products.  At this point, Orbx has announced that the freeware airport pack will not be available for P3Dv5 anymore.   Someone has to redo many of the 300 or so airports in the pack.  Normally, that would be the original developer but Neil Hill, who did a good portion of those airports, passed away a year and a half ago.

Rod

kaha

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2020, 09:10:07 AM »
I'd wish we could have worldwide ORBX TE. Did some flights yesterday in Oregon and it's amazing.

Karl
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Doug

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2020, 10:38:56 AM »
Thank you, Rod, interesting. I was thinking of maybe trying to "correct" some of the great locations we created "up north" of SAK. But I can't do it. The Instant Scenery 3 I use is only good for P3D V3.5. It, of course, sees the "old" terrain, not the new terrain of V5. So we won't be able to fix those great places up. I'll put a "warning NOTAM" up on BWEP for V5+ users and try to find the exact boundary of where the problems start and indicate it on a map.

Doug

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Re: P3D V5 - Layering Problem
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2020, 10:44:15 AM »
Well as developers working behind the scenes, we discussed a while back that sooner or later things would diverge and someday lead us down a different path. Looks like that day has arrived and the path has possibly  lead to a brick wall as far as RTMM and LM is concerned.
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