Author Topic: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery  (Read 2106 times)

Garry

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Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« on: July 15, 2019, 10:12:00 AM »
Hello

A quick query to check that my understanding of the 'correct' placement of RTMM traffic files in P3D is correct.

I understand that the files that RTMM instructs users to place in the P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery folder can now be placed directly into the location's 'scenery' folder [in cases where it exists] because we now know P3D will handle them correctly.

The list below shows the RTMM packages that contain traffic files - as far as I can ascertain:


Bella Coola
Egg Harbor
Garbage Scow
Iggy's Harbor
Lake Hood AI
Lake Louise
Little Port Walter

Misty Commercial 1 & 2
Misty Tourist
Misty Trawling
Log Barge
Misty Cruise Ship
Moresby Camp
Owikeno Lake Area

PAKT Ketchikan Project 144
The Landings
Tongass Narrows
Whiskey Cove
Yes Bay


I can now move the traffic files associated with the scenery in bold text from 'P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery' to their respective scenery folders in 'P3D\Add On Scenery \RTMM'?
Correct?

Will authors include traffic files in the 'scenery' folder in future sceneries?

Thanks
Garry


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Doug

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2019, 10:18:02 AM »
I believe we've put them into different places. To me it makes sense that if you have traffic for a specific location that it would be in that location's folder. But there are some "more general" ones for whole areas (RTMM Shipping), and they would be in a different place. It might be worth considering a little standardization ... let's allow the AI traffic experts to weigh in on this one.

When making a correction or update, I find it difficult to find the "original" file that one may want to delete or modify. I'm wondering why we wouldn't add a "general area" RTMM traffic group similar to adding a scenery location ... "RTMM AI SHIPPING" ... then activated it like a normal scenery?  That way we would always know exactly where things were located. I don't know the reasons for our "positioning". It would be interesting to know what could be done.

ualani

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2019, 11:23:40 AM »
It shouldn't matter where you place them as long as you set your pointer to the proper folder in your scenery library. I have some of them in my scenery folders. Bgl's are...well, bgl's, after all. I think the scenery/world/scenery location is a hold over from previous MS flight sim versions and traffic utilities, but I could be wrong.

Steve
RTMM Library Manager


Doug

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2019, 02:13:53 PM »
Thanks Steve ... the reason I'm asking, as we do 2019 Refresh on pages other than the Scenery Page, this may be something we would want to standardize. Keeping them all named the same way would allow people to keep them alphabetically in the Scenery Library and turn them on and off and repair them easier.  "Traffic RTMM Misty's Place"  ... all would be under "T".  Just thinking out loud.


stiletto2

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2019, 03:57:19 PM »
Traffic files that are part of a location scenery release should stay with that scenery for many reasons....maintains connection to the documentaion, the developer and the reason they exist.

Outside of Location specific traffic files, a bit more questionable.  To me Traffic RTMM Misty's Place should be part of the Misty scenery package.  Not sure how many traffic files we have that are not connected to locations other than RTMM AI Shipping.   I am sure there a number of non-location packages...perhaps those could be gathered together.

Rod   

Doug

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2019, 09:19:34 PM »
We are on the same wavelength. I think Garry brings up an interesting point to explore, so this will probably be next on my list for 2019 Refresh for the site.  Currently we have our hands full with the beta project being run and getting ready to roll out. Once that is settled down, I'll start looking into this and see what we find.  Thank Rod/Steve.  Good comments.  Thanks for the idea Garry.

Garry

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2019, 09:25:38 AM »
Doug /Rod

For the sake of completeness:

I'm not sure, but I think the AI Shipping Project install creates a 'Scenery' folder in "Addon Scenery" for files SA01_ADEX_DWT.bgl and SA02_ADEX_DWT.bgl. I do not recall creating these folders but I have them plus the files.

RTMM also instructs users to put the following files into Addon Scenery\Scenery [so I did]:

From Egg Harbor Fish Camp AI Boats:
EGHB_ADEX_DWT.bgl

and from Yes Bay:
YBL1_ADEX_DWT.BGL
MMC3_ADEX_DWT.BGL
MMC4_ADEX_DWT.BGL
MMC5_ADEX_DWT.bgl
MMC6_ADEX_DWT.bgl

These files plus the others in my OP seem to be the only files I can find that reside outside of a location scenery folder. Doug - we can discuss what we should be doing to update the readme files later.

I plan to move these files into their respective scenery folders and delete the
Addon Scenery\ Scenery folder.  This will result in all RTMM files and folders residing in Addon Scenery\RTMM\"Scenery Folder Name". Nice and tidy.


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nbrich1

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2019, 02:06:55 PM »
There is lots of those locations that have AI traffic.  But I hear your quest/intent Garry to try to be consistent and have your folders/files orderly and tidy! (I'm the same way!) Like something out of order well it is just wrong. Arg! and everything needs a proper place.

Right now am kicking this all around with this discussion as well as changing stuff for the testing work (eswitcher (in beta). There is lots of non-consistent stuff. Some AI traffic files in the scenery folders, others in the designated for scenery-world-scenery - files from other devs too that have NO desginated scenery folder to which they belong. Scenery folders themselves with weird names and not following correct order just weird in my mind as all has to be in order.

Really, the traffic.bgls files as well as the ADEX/ALT files  (IE: ORBX, Aerosoft, etc and RTMM so far)  placed all of these types of traffic or ade elevation files (bgls), in scenery-world-scenery - which is equivalent to layer 3 of the sims' scenery library.

Then in P3Dv4x concerning add-on scenery - the new methodology was to set up all the add-ons to be external to the sim in alternate folders - totally external to the root sim folders (set via scenery.cfg or other cfg files or via addon.xml files). IE: A separate Folder for AI Traffic files, or ALT-ADEX folders) or a parallel scenery-world-scenery folder and placed at layer 3 of the sim library- and those folders set up for the sim to see and execute.

Not sure whats best yet as to the placement of ai traffic files but in my pea brain, the scenery is the scenery location but the AI traffic files, although it may be close to that scenery, can run totally separate or independent to the scenery location so they shouldn't actually be in the scenery folder.
In my noggin' the AI traffic is tied to simobjects not the scenery loation: either airplanes or boats for the most part and the traffic files dictate to the sim when/location to show the airplanes or boats and what path. 

Just like the AI ORBX or Aerosoft, AI Global Ship traffic - or ai traffic created by any other 3rd party designers -  none of these ai traffic files are placed in the scenery folders but are located in an equivalent world type of folder - and placed at layer 3: again a parallel to the sim's scenery-world-scenery folder.

Now the AI Global ships package- has no scenery folder at all and is simply simobjects (Boats) and almost 1400 ai traffic files (bgl) to make it all the ships/boats run in the sim (when called). These ai traffic files are placed in scenery-world-scenery or an equivalent folder - at layer 3. (which is the layer for scenery-world-scenery). Do they need to be there? Or why should they be? Or where is the best place they should be ?
I honestly don't know but we must be consistent.

Currently in my system I run all AI (and ALT) files in separate scenery folders- external to the sim and external to the scenery pieces - and these are placed at the layer 3 level in the scenery library - Easy to setup - all AI traffic files for various 3rd party are in their own folders - turn off ALL or some or any separately and keep the rest still running- and no hunting for files in various scenery folders.

Also with the traffic bgls NOT in the scenery folder of a location, you can run ai traffic without the need of the scenery piece/location even being enabled and turn on those "Other folders" either using the scenery lib/cfg or add-on xml.

ALT/adex files in their own folder again are easily isolated -easily turned ON-OFF when required to isolate if there's an elevation issue or for testing etc.

Anyways playing with all this stuff too- (I have changed my entire setup in the last week- and am testing the locations of ai traffic files for functionality, user-ability as well as flexibility). And sure do want to be able to set up the folders/files from the zip files-fast and efficiently - and in the same folder zip/folder structure for fast copy/paste folders and with no guess work where stuff should go.

All to say, we definitely need this discussion for sure to hammer out consistency of scenery folders, it's contents, the proper/correct files placement in which folders for functionality and being able to maintain correct layering for the sim scenery and for the running of the add-on components and AI Traffic. The sims and recommended placements for addon folders/files seem to be changing and consistency is key for the user community.

All devs should be consistent if possible - which ever way might be the correct way to do this stuff these days? so us end users aren't totally confused and end up having files all over the place!! and the easier the setup the better!!

Norm
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 02:50:48 PM by nbrich1 »
Regards from Toronto, Canada - Misty Flying Club

ualani

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2019, 02:27:10 PM »
Norm, you've just summed up the fact that it doesn't matter where AI or traffic files are located as long as the sim can find them when looking in the scenery library.

Really, to me, it's to each his own as to where the end user ultimately places this stuff. It's one of those things that what makes sense organization-wise, and works for one person, might not make sense or work for the next person. Sometimes we have a tendency to over-think and micromanage an issue that ultimately doesn't really matter in the long run. If it 'aint broke, and it works just fine......

Steve
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nbrich1

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2019, 08:19:43 PM »
Yup I guess you're correct Steve but there is ai traffic files in scenery-world-scenery as well as being in multiple scenery folders etc so all gets mixed to as to the correct locations. Going forward some will have to be in defined folders while others not so it will be/get confusing. But we'll get it all figured out eventually. Lol.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 08:21:21 PM by nbrich1 »
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Doug

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2019, 08:24:56 PM »
But it gets important for me at the website. When something goes wrong with an AI file, they are a devil to track down. It would be nice if we had a standard that put them in the same plAce...frankly, just like a scenery location folder that one would activate.

Doug

nbrich1

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2019, 09:26:27 PM »
Yep right on Doug. In one set up have done just that: placed all the rtmm ai traffic files in one such folder.. a "rtmm ai traffic"  folder which is sequenced at layer 3 in the scenery library as is the sim's scenery-world-scenery folder.

All works perfectly even the seasonal ai traffic files, that is with the iriginal rtmm v3.3 seasonal switcher. All in one location-easy to find etc.

Regards from Toronto, Canada - Misty Flying Club

ualani

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2019, 07:19:15 AM »
Norm, you keep referring to "layer 3" in your scenery library. What is that?

Steve
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nbrich1

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2019, 01:35:53 PM »
Sorry Steve, will explain what I mean by the term "Layer 3". (Or [Area.003] as seen in the scenery.cfg or in the sim's scenery library).. I really could be termed "Layer 1" or at the bottom/BASE of the scenery library.

Ai Traffic files are not tied to scenery at all but the known practice was to place Ai Traffic.bgl files in the sim's "scenery-world-scenery" folder.

Layer 3 - (Instead of Layer 1).  I guess, became more of a P3D thing since most other add-on folders in P3D are contained outside the root sim. Really it could be layer 1- at the bottom of the scenery library in FSX (or P3D) but since each entry in the scenery lib is a layer, it equates to Layer 3.

The recommended practice of simply placing files into the scenery-world-scenery folder or sim folders has changed a bit for P3D users whereas now placing any 3rd party scenery-world-scenery (ai traffic files, Effects, 3rd party add-on scenery, simobjects etc etc) in it's own folder external to the sim.

And a equivalent "scenery-world-scenery" folder that was external to the sim's root "scenery-world-scenery" folder and that equivalent folder positioned in the scenery lib above layer 1 and layer 2 which are the sims default layers. (Layer 1=Default Terrain Layer 2=Default BASE)

So this external equivalent folder to the sim's "scenery-world-scenery" folder is what I refer to as layer 3 and use this folder to house all add-on AI traffic file bgls.  (I call my folder "AI Shipping") and it is located outside my sim. Easy to find, easy to turn off or isolate. 

Scenery.cfg looks something like this:   

[Area.001]
Title=Default Terrain
Texture_ID=1
Local=Scenery\World
Active=TRUE
Required=TRUE
Layer=1

[Area.002]
Title=Default Scenery
Local=Scenery\BASE
Active=TRUE
Required=TRUE
Layer=2

[Area.003]
Title=World AI Shipping (All)
Local=Q:\Addons\Addon Scenery\AI Shipping
Active=TRUE
Required=FALSE
Layer=3

(Or also can add the scenery folder via add-on xml of the folder to activate as a P3D Addon at layer 3)

Anyways more complex than it sounds - is just means at the bottom of the scenery library above the two default layers.


Scenery order Pic (Always work bottom up in the scenery library as the bottom is the default base) whereas in the scenery.cfg file itself- Base layering is listed top > down.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 01:38:27 PM by nbrich1 »
Regards from Toronto, Canada - Misty Flying Club

dexthom

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Re: Traffic Files - moving from P3D\Scenery\World\Scenery
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2019, 02:48:09 PM »
When creating a number of traffic files, it is easier to set the path in the compiler to a specific location.  From day one, that location was Scenery\World\Scenery.  They are stored there in alphabetical order.  They can be in any scenery folder.  Someone once said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".