Author Topic: Navigation without autopilot?  (Read 1054 times)

doksas

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Navigation without autopilot?
« on: September 03, 2018, 06:16:40 PM »
Ok, after many flight with autopilot on and gps navigation i now learning to flight like real bush player without autopilot and only vor/ndb navigation.
This is ok when i have vor or ndb point near route and arrival, but how to navigate when no vor/ndb points in or near route? Watch gps? Or something else?

simurq

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2018, 06:18:00 AM »
Ok, after many flight with autopilot on and gps navigation i now learning to flight like real bush player without autopilot and only vor/ndb navigation.
This is ok when i have vor or ndb point near route and arrival, but how to navigate when no vor/ndb points in or near route? Watch gps? Or something else?

Welcome to the bush world! You'll really enjoy your flight looking out of the window often... :)

In your case (no navaids along the route) you have a couple of options actually. Depending on weather conditions and your minimums, you can use these techniques. They work well in VFR flight but I'd definitely not recommend them in IFR conditions (especially in mountainous areas like Misty Moorings)... :)

If you want to push your flight experience even further, you can also try planning your route in-between two or more navaids in range. Sort of a sandwiched route... I use it sometimes when my flight path deviates considerably from navaid locations but they can still be reached.

Hope it helps! Enjoy!!!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 06:21:55 AM by simurq »
Vüqar "Rustam" Quliyev

doksas

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2018, 06:39:18 AM »
Ok, now it's clear to me and i must to learn and practice  this techniques. Thanks Simurq !
Just one things I do not understand, in this modern era, why bush pilot not use gps, It's much easier? :)

simurq

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2018, 06:58:15 AM »
Just one things I do not understand, in this modern era, why bush pilot not use gps, It's much easier? :)

Well, nowadays in fact they use GPS extensively, even under VFR... :) But nothing can beat old school navigation if you don't have GPS onboard or if it's out of order...

Btw, if you're really interested in "intuition-based" navigation and flying, I encourage you reading this: http://www.av8n.com/how/, especially the section covering cross-country flights, as we discussed above.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 07:00:28 AM by simurq »
Vüqar "Rustam" Quliyev

Dieter

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2018, 07:07:39 AM »
Nowadays bush pilot do use GPS!

But it's a challenge to learn how to navigate your aircraft from A to B via C.
Basic knowledge that older simmers had to learn 20 or more years ago. At that time we only had VORs and NDBs and simple charts. I was kind of satisfaction when we reached the chosen destination by navigating this way.
As I always said PlanG makes simmers lazy and it's not reality.

Another helpful page, published already for many, many years, but basics for learning Flight Simulator Navigation:
http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 07:09:27 AM by Dieter »
Many greetings
Dieter

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doksas

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2018, 06:00:40 PM »
Wow, more lesson for me, thanks Dieter and Simurq , with respect for old school !

nbrich1

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2018, 06:45:08 PM »
All of us can learn lots about real/navigation items.

In some of the MFC Tours in addition to flight plans, sky-vector static maps are prepared and are included in the tour download. These maps show a static map with: land/water,  VOR, NDB, landed or other fixed markings, radio COMMS/NAV/ADF frequencies, beacons etc and in most cases the map reveals usable those fixed markings for finding locations which mark or establish fixed positions in which dead reckoning methods are based. From these fixed locations there is time/distance/direction(degrees) (ADF) to the next fixed location. (See Dead Reckoning below)

If you have seen an E6B - It is a manual flight computer, nicknamed the "whiz wheel" or "prayer wheel", is a form of circular slide rule used in aviation and one of the very few analog calculating devices in widespread use.

E6B are mostly used in flight training, because these flight computers have been replaced with electronic planning tools or software and websites that make these calculations for the pilots. These flight computers are used during flight planning (on the ground before takeoff) to aid in calculating fuel burn, wind correction, time en route, and other items. In the air, the flight computer can be used to calculate ground speed, estimated fuel burn and updated estimated time of arrival. The back is designed for wind vector solutions, i.e., determining how much the wind is affecting one's speed and course.

(There are a few digital E6B  that you can look at and play with if you want:
links >> https://www.e6bx.com/e6b

http://media.aero.und.edu/interactive-trainers/e6b/?q=wind



Here are a few materials for reference.

Help and Reference on the ADF  >> http://www.navfltsm.addr.com

ADF, NDB’s, VOR Definitions

ADF ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) is the radio signals in the low to medium frequency band of 190 Khz. to 1750 Khz. It is widely used and has the major advantage over VOR navigation in the reception is not limited to line of sight distance. The ADF signals follow the curvature of the earth.
VOR VHF Omni Directional Radio Range (VOR) is a type of short-range radio navigation system for aircraft, enabling aircraft with a receiving unit to determine their position and stay on course by receiving radio signals transmitted by a network of fixed ground radio beacons. It uses frequencies in the very high frequency (VHF) band from 108 to 117.95 MHz.

The ADF is an Automatic Direction Finder. It will do exactly what its name says. The ADF automatically points in the direction of the NDB (Non-Directional Beacon) you tune in — roughly the same way a kid will continually to point to his favorite toy store while you try to drive past it.

NDB A non-directional (radio) beacon (NDB) is a radio transmitter at a known location, used as an aviation or marine navigational aid. As the name implies, the signal transmitted does not include inherent directional information, in contrast to other navigational aids such as low frequency radio range, VHF omnidirectional range (VOR) and TACAN. NDB signals follow the curvature of the Earth, so they can be received at much greater distances at lower altitudes, a major advantage over VOR. However, NDB signals are also affected more by atmospheric conditions, mountainous terrain, coastal refraction and electrical storms, particularly at long range.

Non-Directional Beacon frequencies

Aeronautical non-directional beacons broadcast on relatively low frequencies (200 to 415 kHz). The ADF will also receive the standard AM broadcast band at 550 to 1600 kHz. Land-based aeronautical navigation aids such as VORs and NDBs have a two- or three-letter identifier broadcast in Morse code. Some NDBs also broadcast audio, usually weather information. Here's a tip — Get a local VFR sectional chart. It will tell you the frequency, Morse code identifier, and direction to the NDB stations nearest to you.

Theory of operation

A ground station is shown on the charts as Non-Directional Beacon (NDB). They are called non-directional because they don't contain any directional information. The NDBs transmit equally in all directions, like waves caused by a pebble that has been thrown into a pond. Radio waves from an NDB create an electromagnetic field. The electric field is called the E-field and the magnetic field is called the H-field. The E and H fields are perpendicular in space, and their amplitudes vary like a sine wave.
Two antennas are better than one.

All ADF systems have both loop and sense antennas. The loop antenna is usually a flat plate antenna located on the bottom of the aircraft, while the sense antenna is usually a simple wire or foil type antenna imbedded in a fairing. The loop antenna consists of two perpendicular windings on a square ferrite core. The H-field induces a voltage into the two windings of the ADF loop antenna. Because the windings are on a closed loop, the phase angle of the voltages varies as the antenna is rotated. Rotating the loop antenna, you will find there are two points where the voltages exactly cancel each other out. These points are called nulls. Only one of these nulls points to the NDB. The other null is 180 degrees away from the NDB. If we use only a loop antenna we could be heading in the opposite direction. This is not good. The sense antenna determines which null is correct.

ADF, NDB’s-VOR HELP videos please see the following video links

Navigating Using a VOR - Video Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eno0p1n2H84

Navigating Using NDB - Video Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6RXFonFzo0
==============================

Dead Reckoning or DR as it is usually referred, is the process by which one’s current position is calculated based on/using a previously obtained position. A previously determined position can also be termed as a fix; the estimated speed and the course are applied to that fix to obtain a DR.

https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-navigation/what-is-dead-reckoning-navigation-technique-at-sea  (Methods also apply to aircraft nav for the most part.)

So there is lots to learn for those want to go deeper into learning about nav and other associated items before there was digital systems IE GPS/Autopilot to enable an aircraft to follow a flight plan (even in a sim).

Not that all can do this by any means as it is complex stuff but even understanding small pieces of this can sure assist pilots in navigational items and finding their way. (In the past there no developed systems of GPS, aircraft autopilot etc.) 

A long post but very interesting reading/viewing for those that might wish to take the time to read. st of the bush aircraft didn't have any modern devices and some still don't but pilots can find their way. 

Sample skyvector attaced below which indicates a static map and route of the final leg (Leg 13) of Tour MFC0019.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 07:13:30 PM by nbrich1 »
Regards from Toronto, Canada - Misty Flying Club

doksas

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 10:10:58 PM »
Norm, every time your help is great! Thanks for this , now i must learn step by step and plan flight before starting plane .

av8erjm

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2018, 12:10:04 PM »
E6B, I still have the one I was sold when starting flight school, also my orig flight plotter, even though the plastic has yellowed and the painted portion being well worn and unusable. I still use the E6B in the cockpit, but have gotten lazy and rely on computers to do my flight planning. I do laugh when I see someone preparing for flight and see them with a laptop, or Ipad  and all sort electronic aids and wonder do they ever have time to look out front thru the wind screen

MFC0001

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 01:36:55 PM »
In flight school I had the metal one, but then got the round one which I use daily.

But to answer the question at hand, Navigation without auto pilot.  Step one is learning how to fly without it.  The basic requirements for a private pilot is to maintain a given altitude within 50 feet and a heading within +- 5 degrees.  This requires picking out a land mark and keeping you heading to it and watching the horizon out the window.  It takes practice, this is a skill.  Learning the settings to effect a -500 fpm decent using power settings and trim...watching the airspeed.  Learning the proper climb.....each airplane is different.  Once you can actually fly the aircraft, then it is time to learn to navigate....one thing at a time.

Henry
Misty Moorings Team

av8erjm

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2018, 06:16:26 PM »
The hardest thing I've found in the flying in the sim is lack of the sense's, for me trying to trim  out the aircraft much harder in the sim
and find myself chasing the needle on the vertical speed indicator. Much easier in the real world feeling the aircraft in the seat of my pants. I don't have an autopilot in any of the planes I fly in real life and don't feel I need them, but in the sim it's much harder to ''level'' out the plane

doksas

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 07:19:42 PM »
but in the sim it's much harder to ''level'' out the plane
I'm not real pilot, but this is my biggest problem also and reason for use autopilot. Some aircraft no way to stay on desired altitude...

nbrich1

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 08:08:52 PM »
I'm not a trained pilot either Igor but there are some here. I have been fortunate enough to have had some exposure to the cockpit and with those who are pilots or have been pilots in the past. Their knowledge and experience is very valuable for us but it's like anything, the more one learns and tries to practice the learning, the better the overall knowledge and ability to be able to handle the vehicle.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 06:51:16 PM by nbrich1 »
Regards from Toronto, Canada - Misty Flying Club

MFC0001

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Re: Navigation without autopilot?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2018, 06:37:16 PM »
Every aircraft in the RTMM hanger can be hand flown without a problem, but for most folks, you are making to large of correction.  In the real airplane, trim is in many cases less sebsitive making the problem less obvious, but you can't and don't haul the airplane around.  I see many sim folks come in to high or two fast, both leading to bad landings....planning is the key.  You must know the exact settings for cruise, climb, decent and approach and you must practice flying the exact speed.  Trim carefully and in small increments....but the key word is practice.  Real pilots practice....a lot in the beginning.  The sim doesn't give you all the sensory clues, but you can adapt....for those of us fortunate to fly in the real world....sometimes I get those feelings in the office chair....mind over matter....or what ever.

Henry
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