Author Topic: Landing rates  (Read 3919 times)

sunjunkiesi

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Landing rates
« on: May 24, 2018, 10:50:51 AM »
I have a question about how cigar box calculates landing rates?  I just absolutely greased a water landing, I mean I didn't even notice the floats hit, I only started to slow down, and yet I got a landing rate of nearly 500fpm?

I was left feeling thoroughly deflated as I really did grease that one.

BBQSteve

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2018, 12:54:35 PM »
Landing rates in most ACARS programs depnd not only on decent rate, but speed as well, so if you are below stall speed you will see a higher fpm. Pitch also comes into play You can download a free landing rate program kACARS at www.fsproducts.net as well to compare.

nbrich1

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2018, 02:12:01 PM »
I thought I greased one yesterday too... but not. It was like almost -400.. I was going a tad too fast.. It looked like and felt like a greased but if slowed down would more like resemble a sharp slap on the runway.

Now Steve just greased one on an uphil runway .. just over +3!. Nice Steve!

The only requirement for MFC is that the landing rate has to be -600fpm or under.  (I guess, if on the positive side of the scale, like in Steve's latest case: +1 through @200fpm(or so) would be considered good on those uphill runways that we experience in RTMM fro time to time.

Norm
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sunjunkiesi

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 03:13:52 PM »
OK I see.  I have always thought that you should be landing just as the stall warning goes off, have I got that wrong?

nbrich1

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2018, 04:37:30 PM »
Stall speed is too slow and your plane will drop out of the sky with a thud.

IE: For the Beaver stall speed is @ 50 knots..

Each plane has it's numbers.. from stall speed to over speed. 

But there is also a process:

IE: The DHC2 Beaver: Typical or ideal approach/landing speed (depending on load) is @ 70 knots.

Process:

Descent

A good descent profile includes knowing where to start down from cruise altitude and planning ahead for the approach. Normal descent is done with no less than 20" of manifold pressure and 2,050 rpm. A good rule for determining when to start your descent is the 3-to-1 rule (three miles distance per thousand feet in altitude). Take your altitude in feet, drop the last three zeros, and multiply by 3.

For example, to descend from a cruise altitude of 10,000 feet (3,048 meters) to sea level:
10,000 minus the last three zeros is 10.
10x3=30

This means you should begin your descent 30 nautical miles from your destination, maintaining a speed of 135 mph (103 knots; it may not indicate this high until you descend into denser air) and a descent rate of 500 feet per minute. Add two extra miles for every 10 knots of tailwind.

In the Beaver, adjust thrust during descent to maintain 135 mph (use the joystick throttle or press F2 to decrease thrust, or press F3 to increase thrust). The propeller lever should remain at 1,900 rpm.

Approach

As you near the approach phase of flight, bring the power back and fly try to fly at @70 mph on downwind. When you intercept the glide slope or enter the downwind, set the flaps to Landing and put the landing gear down if landing on a hard-surface runway.

Turning base, go to full flaps. Over the fence you should reduce speed to 70 mph. In the full-flaps, high-drag configuration, you may need to use more power to maintain speed.

Landing

If landing on the water, make sure the landing gear are UP. If landing on a hard surface, make sure the landing gear are DOWN.

As you cross the threshold at around 50 feet (15 meters) AGL, the power should be as required and the prop should be full forward.

Raise the nose slightly to flare and slow the descent rate. Bring the power back to idle and hold some back pressure on the controls.

Once all of the wheels are on the runway (hard surface), apply the brakes to slow to taxi speed, exit the runway, and taxi to parking.

Once down on a water runway, lower the water rudders to taxi.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

All great in theory but it all takes practice. And still the force of touchdown may not be the ideal but if you're under -600 you're doing ok.

Like -200 for a small craft, under-400 for a medium sized and under -600 for a medium to larger is a nice to do but not always the case and weather, airplane load/weight etc all have a part of the dynamics and forces.

Norm
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 05:31:48 PM by nbrich1 »
Regards from Toronto, Canada. Home Airport CYYZ.
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BBQSteve

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 07:14:24 AM »
Since we are on the subject of landing rate here, how do we re-fly a flight that is rejected in the tours? Although my actual landing was a -416 fpm I was rejected on a touch and go for -700+.

BBQSteve

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 04:31:52 PM »
No answer?

jeff3163

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2018, 04:45:14 PM »
No answer?

     As soon as the appropriate person sees your comment, they will respond when a response is ready.  We monitor this forum regularly, and response time is pretty darned good.  Have patience, please.   ;)  Also, in the US, it's Memorial Day weekend, some may be on vacation.   :-\

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nbrich1

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2018, 11:01:31 AM »
I guess I am the appropriate guy.. Away for weekend but will email you Steve via my phone.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 03:18:14 PM by nbrich1 »
Regards from Toronto, Canada. Home Airport CYYZ.
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jeff3163

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2018, 11:17:03 AM »
See?! ... Thanks Norm.   ;)  You are appropriate!   :-*

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BBQSteve

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 12:02:42 PM »
Task complete. Continue on!

MFC0001

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 03:50:26 PM »
Hi Steve,
Sorry for the late reply, thank heavens Norm is more on the ball than I am......I have some family issues right now that are interfering with my hobbies.....Hate it when this happens. 

The automatic progression of the flight legs within a tour is the real issue, and to fully address the solution, I have contacted the developed of our Tour Module.  Since we paid for the module, we can expect some product support.  Ideally the rejected pirep should reset the leg so it will be the next one to fly.

No promises of a swift solution, but while there maybe a couple of work arounds as I am sure Norm outlined, this is the obvious solution...waiting now for a reply.

Henry
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BBQSteve

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 06:39:24 PM »
Henry, my issue is not what has been recorded, but what actually happened. I was descending into the airport and hit an invisible hump, object or something, so I did a go around and compensated for the problem an landed, as shown in the PIREP, then continued to taxi. My issue is the interpratation of the flight to accept or reject. No big deal, but if yhe reject stands, I would like to refly the flight.

MFC0001

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 07:17:28 PM »
I understand Steve....let me say this.  We have tried to make all of this a simple as possible and as such we are not leaving any of the information to interpretation.  -600 is the threshold, no matter what.  Unfortunately the sim doesn't give you the feedback needed to actually see and feel the landing.....kind of reminds me when I was in primary flight training.  One of the biggest issues not felt and you can't see is ground effect.  As you approach the ground there is a cushion of air compressed under the wind and it is this effect that you round out on and gently settle onto the ground.  In the sim, if you round out as in straight and level just a few feet off the runway and just hold it....maybe just a bit of back pressure  and you will bleed off the remaining airspeed and land just above a stall.  The sim will do this, you just don't feel it.

The re-fly of a rejected leg remains problematic...the solution hopefully is on its way.

Henry
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MFC0040

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Re: Landing rates
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2018, 07:32:50 PM »
Hi,
just my 2 cents, i always got another freeware for landings called LOLA on when flying and i must say,KACARS is ALWAYS almost spot on for the landing, unfortunately a little less accurate with pitch, but within +-1 degrees, but u must be careful not to drop from the sky while floating and greasing above ground or water with your speed quickly decreasing.

And it doesn't necesserely mean that if u have 300fpm landing rate, that is gonna actually relate to your specific plane and its characteristics and then take into account also the way you percive the landing(your feeling). Accu Feel helps with those kind of issues, especcialy if u set it for each plane u fly and dont change them all the time or not at all.

Good way to practice this "landing feeling" is to just make a couple of patterns around the airfield trying different landings(soft,hard,greased,low-stall speed,high speed) and see how they feel.

I usually never try to grease it as that leds to all kinds of things, i can assure you, that if u make a proper and stable approach,u wont even have the need to grease or flare to much because the plane will be exactly where u want it to be,just a nudge of flare and should be ok, the landing is just a reward for things u have been doing before the landing. If u have a stable 200-400 fpm approach to begin with, it can only get better from there.