Author Topic: All-in-One Package?  (Read 5359 times)

DocBird

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All-in-One Package?
« on: July 23, 2014, 07:48:38 AM »
Dear All,

I still think it would be great to have all the sceneries at hand in P3D without installing 90+ locations separately by hand.

Inspired by the Legacy Collection may I ask if the following would work:

I would download all the RTTM sceneries, unzip them and then copy all the BGL-files from the respective scenery-folder to one “All-BGL”-folder, copy all respective Sound-files into one “All-Sounds”-folder and all respective Effects-files into one “All-Effects”-folder.

In a second step I would copy the Sound-files to the sound-folder of P3D2, the Effects-files into the Effects folder of P3D2 and the All-BGL-folder into the Addon-Scenery folder in P3D2. I would then add the All-BGL-folder as Scenery in the Scenery Library.

AI-traffic files (for boats or floats) would also be copied to their place in P3D.

Would this work? Would also the Season Switcher work?

What about the texture-files that come with some sceneries? Where do they need to go?

Thanks for an answer!

Many happy landings

Till

jeff3163

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 08:18:31 AM »
Well, I think it's better to take the "low and slow" approach to the website.  Download a location, then go explore it.  That way you know each location intimately.  There is no hurry to get them all installed.  And when you have seen everything, you will know the RTMM world like you live there.    ;)

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stiletto2

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 08:26:23 AM »
Hi Till,

Here are a several reasons (off the top of my head) why mixing the content of scenery folders (.bgls) from multiple scenery packages is not recommended:

1. There is no guarantee that a developer will use a unique name for each .bgl so there may be duplicate names.

2. If a new version of the scenery is released and requires the removal of the old scenery package, finding the old .bgls to remove would be almost impossible unless you kept the original package to compare file names....a process that would be tedious and prone to error

3. Many times when problems develop or frame rate loads need to be reduced it is very helpful for the user to selectively turn off certain sceneries by disabling them.  This ability would be lost.

4. Some more complex sceneries require the layering of scenery folder sets in the Scenery Library which would be impossible if all the .bgls were consolidated.  (The order of the scenery entries in the Scenery Library determines which objects will overlay others when more than one object occupies the same spatial coordinates)

Rod
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 08:28:04 AM by stiletto2 »

spud

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 09:19:30 AM »
Til,
As Rod says, lumping everything into one folder would become a support and file manipulation nightmare and there is no real need to "Have it ALL at once".  The whole idea behind RTMM is the journey from here to there.  Download and install one or two locations.  Add them to the sim and then enjoy the fruits of the few min. it has taken and fly to the new destination and explore Misty's world.  This will allow you to eventually have all those many locations and in the process you discover this beautiful area of the world.

Just cramming as much as possible into the sim and never experiencing the pleasure of going "from here to there" is just grabbing scenery for the sake of volume.  Take the time to stop and smell the fire weed, salt air and cooking salmon on the grill.  Much more fun.
 8)
Later,

Spud

Doug

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 09:20:21 AM »
Till ... you are in a long line of people asking for this.  This is a subject we've struggled with over the years. And it would be a good idea to just have the whole thing "download", you put it in, and you're "done."  But the complications are in the details for us. 

Being a site run by "wannabee professionals" ... we are pretty good at this, but we do make mistakes. They will happen (now that we know Murphy is Jeff's room-mate!).  So we are ALWAYS changing things, adding something, taking something out that doesn't work, and recently, literally changing everything we are doing location by location to remove undefined objects, get rid of "illegal ones" (strays that we should not have used) and adding new ones. (Steve and Rod right now are looking at a possible upgrade of the Object Libraries ... we found some great objects and have been given permission to use them). So things will always be "dynamic" here at RTMM.

Legacy is a good example.  In that package are many bgl's from many locations.  When we went through the POP cleanup procedure, I worked on each location and fixed them up. Then I had to go back and replace all of the bgl's in Legacy to make sure those also were up to date ... a complete duplication of effort. Legacy is there to get folks started, and that makes it worth the effort, but there is no way I want to expend that kind of effort on the whole site.  Getting all this stuff working ONE time is hard enough, Duplicating that effort just isn't going to happen ... I'd rather put the time into a new package, or Here2There ideas, etc.

Right now, when there is an "update" we notify folks, they download the new one and take out the old one. We don't have to worry about replacing a huge "whole" package because of an update. Also, few people realize how BIG this site really is ... THOUSANDS of files when you see it on a hard drive. Downloading the package would take all day. But worse than that, the strain on our server (remember, it's a free site) would be huge. Taking the little daily "hits" of people downloading individual locations is something we can technically handle. Having 300 people downloading the whole package would crash us.

And then, there is the philosophy ... and this is what Jeff is discussing.  We know there are scenery junkies out there. "Hey ORBX has a new airport ... must have it ... download it....look at it ... cool ... ok, now I've seen it, when can I get the next airport?"  That's not what we are 'about.'  Our focus is on the FLIGHT, not the LOCATION. When folks get serious (as we are) about the Here2There philosophy, the "location" or "scenery" package is only there to make the FLIGHT happen.  Who would care about flying for an hour to find two tents and a campfire? The "scenery" itself is not worth the time ... but having it there draws the pilot deep into the beautiful scenery of Misty Fjords. These tents were placed strategically so that the pilot would have to fly through some of the most beautiful and dangerous "passes" in the area.  It is not the two tents and a campfire that make it work, it is "getting to" the two tents and a campfire... and hopefully the satisfaction of accomplishing the trip without having to hit the reset button!  (Fairfax Lake Campsite).

The RTMM experience "builds" as people grow with it.  For those of us who have flown all of the locations (and I'm betting there are only a handful!) ... we have a "community" in our computer. For those starting out, they should be picking ones they WANT to fly ... on the Here2There page, if you click on the NAME of the location in the Starting Points table, you get a map that tells you where the scenery package is located. Maybe its a long flight over water, not interested. Maybe its only around the corner, too short, not interested.  So you "choose" what you want to fly and add it to the collection of things you have from RTMM.  But to solve the "long flights over water" ... we added RTMM AI Shipping (button off the Boating Page). So you can watch for shipping on those long over-water flights!  This is a point of depth for RTMM.

RTMM isn't for the scenery junkies that want to "collect" scenery. We've decided that if you want a location, the users will have to do some "work" to get it.  And if the user puts a little effort into the scenario as the developer did, there is more "ownership" involved. Those people tend to "stay" with RTMM, and they pick another one to download and try ... and their collection builds, and so does their involvement with RTMM.

As a user's collection builds, they learn the areas, they will start "recognizing" areas, just as the real (seat of the pants) bush pilots up there do. I flew with one that kept a cigar box under his seat. In it were a bunch of notebook pages. Each had the name of the "cabin" on the top and the pilot's quick notes for how to get there by VFR. They know to "turn left" just like we learn to "turn left" going to the grocery store. These guys are amazing ... it all looks the same to you and me when taking a ride with them, but if you ask them "what's that over there?" ... they will tell you ... and invariably they have a story for it.  This is where our TripTix came from. Downloading a scenery with a V1 or V2 trip ticket will give you the details of what that pilot would be talking about as you make the trip.

I only hope FSDiscover! will eventually show up for P3D. In the database for that I have put in over 800 way points (by hand!) so that as you are flying over the area, everything is labeled, each point, each tributary, each fjord. So when you read the TripTix, they make sense.

So RTMM isn't a scenery package, it is a lot more involved ... it has a lot more depth.  Right now we are looking at Herring Bay. Great scenery by Brad Allen ... a beautiful and well-made cannery. But wouldn't it be nice to not only see the cannery, but drop by for a fresh fish sandwich at a restaurant overlooking it all. And why not a place to fuel up, or land your helicopter? Hmmm ... so we make it better.  And when we do, we only change Herring Bay Cannery (adding it all into one) or we add a "Herring Bay Community" as a stand-alone that goes with it. And when we make the change (if we do), we announce it, and folks can download and try it.  But I don't have to repair or add to a "total' scenery download that everyone would want .. crashing us.  And we get pretty glib about discussing replacing bgl files, etc. Power users have no problems with this. We have people hitting the site that haven't a CLUE what a bgl is and can barely follow the instructions we give them.  Asking them to replace a bgl, is asking them to mess with a few million bytes of code ... and when they screw it up, and they will, they get angry with us. In this case, the worst they can do is screw up Herring Bay ... the rest stays intact. So this compartmentalization is another reason for the separation of the locations into different files.

Legacy was sort of a "trial' in that direction.  It worked, but you wouldn't believe the questions we get on it because later something is download on top of a legacy site. We clearly state this in the FAQs and readme files, but still people don't understand the concept. We have 50,000 unique visitors from all over the world hitting the site and having these kinds of problems. Legacy is great, but it also taught us that with it comes hours of answering emails about problems people have created for themselves by not reading the directions. It is a catch 22 for sure.

It is a great idea, it would be nice if it was all in a box and was easy to install. It isn't. And we know that is not for "everybody".  So some folks will be disappointed, they'll say it is too much work and simply move on. We wish they would stay, but it is not their nature. 

I reply on this post not just to you but to all the other folks (by emails) that are asking your exact same questions.  Good questions. I hope this helps folks understand what we are doing and why.

Doug

Dieter

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 01:35:25 PM »
Doug,

precisely argued, plain-spoken words, extensive and distinct description about spirit and purpose of our community.

You came straight to the point what's all about "Return to Misty Moorings".

Thanks you very much!
Many greetings
Dieter

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ualani

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 02:26:37 PM »
Wow. Quite a dissertation. Very well outlined and explained.
Legacy RTMM Library Manager
Custom Objects Design
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Doug

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2014, 02:57:28 PM »
Till asked a VERY IMPORTANT question, one that I get in my email almost weekly from folks. I've sort of been "explaining" it piecemeal for a couple of years. Till's question gave me an opportunity to lay it all out, so now when I'm asked in the email, I can "point" to the forum post and won't have to continue to say it.  What Till and others are asking for is something that seems totally straight forward and simple ... and with most "packages" it would work.  But think of AVSIM putting their FSX scenery library out in a single file for everyone ... oh me, I'd hate to be the one working on that sucker!  :-)  So there's our reasons.  I'm sure not everybody will agree ... but that's RTMM ... who we are, what we do and why we do it the way we do.

Doug

PS... one other little point I missed. What if a person only has Tongass X, or only PFJ or SAK? Or partial combinations of these?  The scenery doesn't work unless the base package is there. So if people don't have SAK, they don't download SAK locations (and they are all labeled on the Scenery Page for everyone).

corbu1

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 04:14:55 PM »
Till asked a VERY IMPORTANT question, one that I get in my email almost weekly from folks. I've sort of been "explaining" it piecemeal for a couple of years. Till's question gave me an opportunity to lay it all out, so now when I'm asked in the email, I can "point" to the forum post and won't have to continue to say it.  What Till and others are asking for is something that seems totally straight forward and simple ... and with most "packages" it would work.  But think of AVSIM putting their FSX scenery library out in a single file for everyone ... oh me, I'd hate to be the one working on that sucker!  :-)  So there's our reasons.  I'm sure not everybody will agree ... but that's RTMM ... who we are, what we do and why we do it the way we do.

Doug

PS... one other little point I missed. What if a person only has Tongass X, or only PFJ or SAK? Or partial combinations of these?  The scenery doesn't work unless the base package is there. So if people don't have SAK, they don't download SAK locations (and they are all labeled on the Scenery Page for everyone).

Great description what RTMM is...

I agree 100%!!!! For myself speaking RTMM is not only a selection of different flightsim sceneries....but with the past years it has become a virtual home.

I think your last point is also important. RTMM has grown since it started. RTMM longtime users have also grown with it and do most probably have pfj, pnw, sak and tongassX installed on their systems with the years....new RTMM visitors might do not have them already or will not be willing to purchase them. So it might be neccesary creating separate packs including only locations for sak, pnw, pfj and tongassX for new users..This could get the more and more complicated to handle?


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stiletto2

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 10:20:36 PM »

PS... one other little point I missed. What if a person only has Tongass X, or only PFJ or SAK? Or partial combinations of these?  The scenery doesn't work unless the base package is there. So if people don't have SAK, they don't download SAK locations (and they are all labeled on the Scenery Page for everyone).


[/quote]

Just to clarify, we do have permission to use Tongass Fjords X (TFX) as an object library source, so, our users all need to have TFX or they won't see a number of objects as well as shipping models in our sceneries even if they are sceneries that are built for use in PFJ or SAK.

Rod

DocBird

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 06:26:54 PM »
Sorry, Gentlemen, for not being responsive. Real life took its toll…

Thanks for all your thoughts why the content should be fragmented as it currently is. I see your points and I certainly agree with most of them.

I, however, disagree with the point that the relationship to the beautiful region gets closer if I have to install each one of the cabins and locations separately. I totally agree that this great area must be “explored” rather than conquered. But I doubt that this “involvement” is achieved by forcing the user to install ever part of the RTTM experience in a single step. It rather can be achieved by featuring locations (just like you now do on the Here2There-page – excellent btw!).

How beautiful it would be to follow the featured route (Here2There) to the featured location and not only to see Hollis Harbor at the end but also to have the possibility to fly to the nearby POIs/cabins on the way?

Let me explain the background of my request: For me time is the most important factor: I am a working man with family and have only very limited time for flight simulation. So for me time is of the essence. I can usually start once or twice a week after the kids are in bed (2100) and then have an hour or an hour and a half to “fly”. If I start to browse the Here2There-page (15 min – it is such a nice place to look around that I could easily spend the whole evening…) until I found a nice flight, download and install it (another 5 min), fire up REX, PlanG, TrackIR and P3D2, incl. the change of the starting point and loading the right flight, the first 30 minutes are over.

I agree that it would certainly be reasonable not to have “all-in-one” but only all sceneries for each regions (PFJ/TF/SAK).

And I certainly see that it would be harder to spot sceneries with high impact on frames (but in time were most people no longer have much trouble with this…). I also see the support issue and duplication issues.
So it might be something to consider to make it easier (i) to find “a good flight for tonight” (maybe you could indicate the distance of the flight and the starting airport with each scenery) and (ii) make it easier to install the respective sceneries (I always tent to read the readme text only to find, that it is the standard-readme-text… - It would be helpful to have any unusual and necessary information clearly stated in an individual document).

Thanks for considering!

And keep up your great work!

spud

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2014, 12:01:22 AM »
Limited time is a factor for a great many of the RTMM members and while having a mass download for the scenery would be convenient, once again scenery locations combined into one large file is just not the route to go for file maintenance/upgrading, trouble shooting and even removing a location if necessary.
Perhaps an evening or two a month could be utilized to browse the Here2There page to determine an itinerary/area you determine you want to explore and make a list of those scenery downloads and gather the zip file in a folder devoted to that area. 
Downloading a file takes less than a minute and when the zips are gathered installation in most instances takes less than 5 min. per download as the vast majority consists of only 1-6 files in a single folder.  In an hour 10 locations are certainly not out of the question.  That would allow for multiple evenings of exploration and enjoying the RTMM scenery.  When finished with that group another evening could be devoted to doing it again.
Once again having "regional packs" (IE: SAK, PFJ, Tongass X etc.) while convenient still entails installing each locations separately or throwing them into one large folder which has already been discussed and the pitfall pointed out.
Remember that RTMM has always been a work in progress and the evolution of the downloads and recommended file structure came about through experience, trial and error as the site grew and matures.
I agree that if some one wanted to volunteer the effort to browse and list all the different locations in a given ORBX region I'm sure it would find a quick home on the site to pass on the information to the members. 
Remember that the vast amount of information compiled on RTMM is the work of mostly one person.  Doug makes almost all the entries and gathers the excellent information provided. 
Scenery locations are of course from various people and done on there own time and provided to the members purely for the pleasure of sharing the hobby with like minded users.  As mentioned with around 500 different places to visit to revamp the process to make it easy to 'get it all now' certainly isn't easy for the limited time each and every person at RTMM has just like everybody including yourself.
It simply is not that hard or time consuming to get a half dozen RTMM locations, with a few exceptions, in an hours times.  Just getting FSX running takes the better part of a quarter hour as you point out.  Unless your faced with a very slow ISP downloading the small download files is rapid and after installing a few locations the chore becomes quite familiar and only takes less time that it does to wait while the FSX Scenery Library recompiles the scenery.cfg database.  Again FSX slow loading is more of a hinderence than obtaining scenery.
If there are any volunteers that would care to compile a list of downloads for each ORBX Region I'm quite sure that it would be favorably considered for inclusion for informational purposes but providing a single download of those locations is not a priority at the moment which would detract from providing more and better places to discover in the RTMM world.
 8)
Later,

Spud

Doug

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Re: All-in-One Package?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2014, 04:26:50 PM »
This is what the dispatches are for ... they are generally multiple locations and they are relatively close to each other. You do have to download the ones that are in the dispatch, but this "solution" heads in that direction of focusing on small areas.  You'll notice, my two most recent endeavors were fixing up Herring Bay and Metlakatla. Both close by. You can expect about 3 more "relatively" close. When done, this will be a nice little dispatch, coming out of Misty's Place and going to 3 or 4 locations.

Also, we at RTMM are not the only people that can build a dispatch.  Yes, I have the PHP/HTML for it but if someone wants to try one of these, follow the format of a dispatch and send it to me in "doc" format. I'll put that into the html and you'll have a new dispatch, with your name on it. You can make a flight plan with Plan-G. If you send that along, I'll make the map from it.  I do not mind doing this extra work for someone that has taken the time to create one of these.  And I'd be happy to work with you DURING the creation to guide you through the process.

The trick to creating a dispatch is finding a grouping that is interesting ... pretty scenery. Think about a storyline that brings them together. Then look at ways to fly "low and slow" between them using Plan-G to wind and twist through the valleys from point to point. It takes some creativity.  The goal is to get folks to download that little set of locations, and give them a "lesson" on how to fly to them via the dispatch. You need a "pretty" grouping, an interesting flight plan, and a storyline. If someone wants to try this, let me know. I'll work with you to help you through the process. 

We are not "through" building scenery locations ... but with the 300 or so we have ... 600 with the cabins (a single download), we have PLENTY to build some interesting trips among them.  We are really focusing on Here2There ... using the many we have and finding ways to help people enjoy them.

TripTics can also be made by anyone.  Again, I'll put them into the HTML. A TripTic takes you pretty much to a specific locations, being different from a dispatch that usually takes you to several locations. On the Here2There page, if the location has a triptic, it is indicated in the right hand column. Many locations do not have one ... if there is one you think would be fun to try ... give it a try. Again, I'll help you.

RTMM is about Here2There ... it is about inviting people "into" the beautiful scenery of Alaska and guiding them to the most beautiful places ... and there are MANY. Working with Dispatches and Triptix is just a way of sharing that makes RTMM fun for everyone.

Doug
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 04:32:55 PM by Doug »