Author Topic: DX10 Object Conversion Discussion - (Formerly "CIRP!!!!! WOW!)  (Read 372110 times)

jeff3163

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2014, 07:15:49 AM »
Maybe the thread should be renamed then?   ;)

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ualani

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2014, 04:08:28 PM »
Brad,
I've been talking about and promoting those converted texture fixes for months until I'm blue in the face! I explained it all again in my previous post in this thread. Can you move this discussion and relevant posts to a new thread so I can explain it all again for the nth time? I'd be glad to upload my entire set of converted files, but be warned that it is pretty massive and would have to be split up in numerous chunks.

Steve
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Agood

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2014, 04:33:57 PM »
Can we not at least fix the RTMM-hosted extensions, make the fixes available for download instead of the DX9-only versions? Who 'owns' the download area here?

Dunno if we'd be allowed to host fixed versions of the external libraries, rwy12, UKVFR, OZx and the lot. To be honest after seeing how simple this is to fix, I ask myself why the heck people haven't updated their packages ages ago.

I can also provide a brief explanation if desired, let me know which thread you'd like it in...

spud

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2014, 11:42:48 PM »
Can we not at least fix the RTMM-hosted extensions, make the fixes available for download instead of the DX9-only versions? Who 'owns' the download area here?

Dunno if we'd be allowed to host fixed versions of the external libraries, rwy12, UKVFR, OZx and the lot. To be honest after seeing how simple this is to fix, I ask myself why the heck people haven't updated their packages ages ago.

I can also provide a brief explanation if desired, let me know which thread you'd like it in...

Updated their files ages ago is rather a misnomer as the problem only arose with the release of P3D v2.0 which has been available a short time.  One problem with this post is that three different conversion programs have been discussed and of course the original subject was how goo CIRP scenery is.
We need to get things together people and zero in on the problem that IF you use P3D v2.0 old FS9 scenery objects do not work according to reports.  Good enough, that means that there are some objects on the required libraries that will have to be updated if RTMM ever officially endorses or supports P3D v2.0 which, the last time I looked is NOT the case.
Firstly, ORBX has only a very few software installers converted to the P3D v2.0 format.  Until ORBX completes the new installers there will be no support for any ORBX programs installed in P3D v2.0 with third party migrators etc.  I realize this means nothing to all the "I gotta have it NOW" folks jumping on anything out there that might or might not work.  You just need to cool down, suck it up and be willing to wait for ORBX to do its thing.  Because RTMM scenery is totally dependent on the ORBX regions and Tongass Fjords X those have to be brought into OFFICIAL compliance in P3D v2.0 before our scenery needs to be updated and then only if it is offically adopted to do so.
I watched the same 'feeding frenzy' about DX10 and RTMM scenery.  Unfortunately, DX10 is not compatible within P3D v2.0 from what I have read and the requirement for a video card that is DX11 compatible is one of the requirements you need to run P3D v2.0.
I humbly suggest that a new thread or forum be started to post info, questions and suggestions reguarding the updating of required library objects from FS9 to P3D v2.0.  It seems that while it does take a little time it is possible.
 8)
Later,

Spud

Agood

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2014, 03:05:46 AM »
spud, as I've written above somewhere - let me know where you guys'd like the thread and we can go there - I am undecided between CIRP subforum and the Troubleshooting forum.

And: I'm not talking about P3Dv2, but about FSX in DX10 mode, which has been around for a while and has gotten to a one-click-usable state last year when Steve's Fixer was released. As you already mention, ORBX and many other developers do not fully support P3Dv2 yet (Flight1's refusal comes to mind particularly), I'd say the texture issue is more relevant for FSX than for P3D at the moment...

spud

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 10:13:04 AM »
Agood,
my original inquiry about converting textures was strictly aimed at the problem with P3D v2.0.  DX10 for me is a non-starter.  I do not even read DX10 threads on forums and/or sites as I have no intention of using it.  It has been reported that some older scenery objects (FS9) do not function in P3D v2.0 and that they can be converted.  I noticed that the ConvImX.shtml program ualani referenced did batch conversions and that would certainly make converting any files in the required libraries faster and less painless if conversion were ever needed due to supporting P3D v2.0 in the future.
On this and ORBX forums both it has become a problem because folks are posting about 2 or 3 different conversions (DX10, P3D v1, P3D v2.0 etc.)  of course P3D v1 is not history with the release of v2.0 but many people had converted their ORBX stuff to that sim because ORBX had written installers for it.  They are also doing the same for the newer version of P3D but will take some time to accomplish.  Once that is done I can see many simmers wanting to use the new simulator with ORBX products.  I'm sure eventually RTMM will start being used with the P3D v2.0 compatible ORBX scenery and when that happens then the non-compatible scenery library objects will become a problem which will only be solved by converting them to P3D v2.0 use.
 8)
Later,

Spud

ualani

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 01:54:41 PM »
For some reason there seems to be a communication problem that's somehow created a convoluted mixture of FSX/DX10/P3D issues and questions in this thread. Spud is talking about P3d and Agood is asking about DX10, FSX, and RTMM files. Therefore I will start a tutorial thread within the help and troubleshooting board on how to easily convert textures for compatibility with FSX DX10. It won't have anything to do with P3D textures. I'll let the P3D crowd worry about that. I'm having internet issues at the moment and will post the tutorial when they are resolved. Stay tuned in the days ahead.
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Agood

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 05:23:23 PM »
For some reason there seems to be a communication problem that's somehow created a convoluted mixture of FSX/DX10/P3D issues and questions in this thread. Spud is talking about P3d and Agood is asking about DX10, FSX, and RTMM files. Therefore I will start a tutorial thread within the help and troubleshooting board on how to easily convert textures for compatibility with FSX DX10. It won't have anything to do with P3D textures. I'll let the P3D crowd worry about that. I'm having internet issues at the moment and will post the tutorial when they are resolved. Stay tuned in the days ahead.

+1

And: for myself I resolved the DX10 issues. I was just asking to make the fixed files (which should work nicely for both DX9 and DX10 FSX) available for other users. I am certain that I'm not the only DX10 user out there, far from it, and installing a reasonable amount of RTMM scenery is enough work as it is, without having also to find out how to convert textures for DX10 use in addition.

stiletto2

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2014, 09:53:58 PM »
Hi all,

Though RTMM continues to do what we can to help our DX10 users (e.g. modifying as much of our old scenery as possible to be DX10 Ready), there is no plan to store or link to converted versions of the current libraries that are needed to use the RTMM scenery.   This is due to a number of issues including licensing and the changing FSX/P3D landscape. 

I personally am quite happy that there are tools that our DX10 users can acquire to do conversions to make viewing our scenery better on their computers.  I am hopeful that a comprehensive and easy tool to convert the old FS9 objects to FSX format will emerge before a lot of users migrate to P3Dv2.  Time will tell...

Rod


Trex3D

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2014, 10:16:14 PM »
I also think that a step-by-step guide from start to end outlining in detail the DX9 to DX10 migration process with complete list of tools and software needed, possible issues that might arise, things to consider, etc. would greatly benefit those who are interested. A separate, dedicated forum thread might also be helpful to consolidate ideas, questions, fixes, etc. related to it to elucidate uncertainties and for those who have experience in migrating to DX10 to contribute and share tips/tricks in resolving issues they know or have encountered. Maybe a definitive, comprehensive guide or manual can be drafted out of it and updated from time to time with whatever changes in tools, software and technology that may come along. Just my 2 cents  ;)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:17:01 PM by Trex3D »


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Doug

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Re: CIRP!!!!! WOW!
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 10:15:10 AM »
The place to "start" with DX10 is right here:

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/387343-the-how-to-doc/

Read the step by step instructions carefully.  It really is not very difficult to do. The only downside I can see is there will be an object missing here and there .. many of the earlier "problems' have been solved with the new fixer.  Your frame rates will jump, the quality of your screen will improve and you will find it an altogether "better" FSX experience.  Once you put in Steve's "fixer" you don't really have to do anything unless you like to tweak. I installed it and have not touched it (on purpose). It works great with no problems or glitches ... target frame rate of "30" hit consistently while flying down the Tongass Narrows, where previously I had 10-12 FPS.  It works, folks.

As for the missing objects. At RTMM, we are going after those making our locations "DX10 Ready" (you will see the logo already on many of our scenery packages).  We are slowly coming down the list "updating" the zip files so when you see the "DX10 Ready" logo, it means you will see all the objects in DX10 just fine ... no "conversion tools" are necessary ... you just download and install the updated file and it "works" fine in DX10.  We are replacing the "old" style objects that do not show up in DX10. Example: picnic tables we had used in The Cabins (all DX10 Ready now) were all changed to a new picnic table that you can see in DX10. 

We are not going to get into conversions or special libraries at RTMM.  We've discussed this at length and have decided against it. We don't need "more" libraries at RTMM, (we need less!). The "complication" factor is why many people come look at RTMM then move on, it is too difficult to get all set up ... adding more "complications" is not what we are going to do.  Also, the conversions are showing problems with DX11 (P3D) ... so we don't want to "fix" something here that will have to be "re-fixed" when we migrate to P3D.

But we are going to replace "bad" objects with "good" ones so anyone using DX10 will be able to see everything ... and without changing any objects or converting them.  This is a lot of work for us, but we hope this will give us a seamless platform to migrate to P3D when it comes (and it IS coming!!). Everything you can "see" in our "DX10 Ready" locations you can see perfectly in P3D. 

If you are a DX10 person (and you should be!) ... you can help us.  Continually send us things you see that are "missing" or distorted. (Often you will see only a roof for a building, etc) ... get those to us. Name the location and what is missing, and a screen shot will always help. Post it in the DX10/P3D area. (I've started a DX10 Missing Objects thread there.  We will "fix" those scenery locations as you find them.  We can use your help to make the RTMM experience fully DX10 (and therefore P3D) "ready."

Doug

By-The-Way:  This is an EXCELLENT discussion, probably one of the best threads we've had on this kind of technology. For that reason, I have moved it over to the DX10-P3D board area where you can continue the discussion.  Since most of you are "used to" the name of the thread, I'll leave the name alone for now.  But PLEASE continue the discussions. Just because we are not going to put up "converted libraries" does NOT mean you should stop discussing it. Many people are interested in doing this and are relying on the technology being posted in this thread. So "don't stop!!!"  please keep the informing flowing for all those folks.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 10:25:06 AM by Doug »

spud

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Re: DX10 Object Conversion Discussion - (Formerly "CIRP!!!!! WOW!)
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2014, 11:15:44 AM »
To continue the 'discussion' germaine to this forum I keep reading and re-reading all about DX10 and updating the scenery so it works seamlessly in that mode which is a very good thing indeed for those who are using DX10 mode.

I guess when I asked my question about converting FS9 scenery objects that have been noted as not working in the P3D v2.0 simulator I either was not very clear or others did not read my question closely enough.

DX10 compatible scenery has been and is still being 'fixed' for our scenery and I sort of stepped into the middle of conversion software with a question about being able to make batch conversions to speed up and simplify a process to make RTMM fully compatable with P3D v2.0.  This is because I see that as the natural follow on to FSX sometime in the future.  That being said, if we are to keep abreast of that trend our older required libraries will need to be converted from FS9/FSX only compatability.  As I understand the situation converting older FS9 scenery object will make them visible with the P3D v2.0 sim and make them work even better in FSX than they do now.

As I see the possible problem for the future of RTMM, when there is a move over to P3D v2.0, our libraries will have to have compatible objects inclusive.  This would not require any "special libraries" only that the existing objects would need to be converted.

I do not know if the same programs that can be used to convert files to DX10 do the same thing as is required to make older scenery objects visible in P3D v2.0 if they do then that simplifies the process.  If they do not then we add another layer of compatability problems.

I understand that this would entail the hosting of those converted libraries in house as some are already done.  This would not only simplify obtaining correct scenery object libraries but, if we retain the original credits for the authors of these freeware files, should be acceptable to those authors.  Both the EZ_1 and RWY12 libraries we link to have both been compiled by others already and are not original to their respective authors.  Converting the objects to P3D v2.0 compatablity does not modify the objects in any way, a table is still the same table it will just appear as the table in P3D v2.0.  Once the FS9 objects are converted there would only be the converted library available to download hence nothing special or exta.  Because you could download the library simply by clicking on a link instead of having to login to flightsim .com then search for EZ_1.zip and then download it at a creeping 29.7KB/Sec that simplifies things even more.
Now I'll step back and let the DX10 crowd discuss that mode some more.
 8)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 11:22:39 AM by spud »
Later,

Spud

Agood

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Re: DX10 Object Conversion Discussion - (Formerly "CIRP!!!!! WOW!)
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2014, 01:39:31 PM »
Ok, as we've not gotten around to this yet: mini-tutorial on converting old DX9 addons to work in DX10, at least that's how it worked for me.

1. use Windows Explorer, navigate to the file system folder of the offending library (you should see a 'scenery' and a 'texture' subfolder)
2. quick check in the texture subfolder: are there any files in there with a .bmp extension? Those are the  textures we want to convert to the .dds format that DX10 seems to be happy with.
3. rename the texture folder to something like 'texture.orig'
4. create a new folder called 'texture', and copy any existing .dds files from the original texture folder into this new folder
5. run the convlmx tool (*), on the left hand side of the tool navigate to the 'texture.orig' folder, on the right-hand side to the new 'texture' folder
6. on the left-hand side, select to show only .bmp files, and mark all of them
7. options at the bottom, select DirectDrawSurface (DDS), don't check 'Flip image data...', select DXT5 on right-hand drop-down box, check 'Include Mipmaps', don't check 'Dither 16bit'
8. click 'Convert' - voila

When you start up FSX again, you should now see all the previously missing objects or parts of objects. If it all works for you, you might now delete the 'texture.orig' folder and use the converted files. If for some reason you are unhappy with the results, just delete the new 'texture' folder and rename 'texture.orig' back to 'texture'.

This is actually a lot quicker than it sounds, converting an addon takes less time than reading this. And it can be done quickly when installing new addons. The only parts where you want to plan in some time is when you're converting the old textures in the OZx and rwy12 libraries (or any largish ones you might have installed).


* e.g. here: http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Graphic/Image-Convertors/ConvImX.shtml
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 05:31:24 PM by Agood »

stiletto2

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Re: DX10 Object Conversion Discussion - (Formerly "CIRP!!!!! WOW!)
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2014, 02:53:56 PM »
Agood:

Thanks for that concise summary!

Spud:

The DX10 conversion software is to convert textures.   The additional P3Dv2 problem is that the object library of models (not the textures) created under FS9 are not quite compatible with DX11.  Therefore the conversion necessary is an actual change to each .bgl library (located in the Scenery folder) that contains the model files.  This is completely different from converting the textures that are contained in the Texture folder.   And unfortunately, it appears, that a conversion of the object library is not completely straight forward when it comes to the special effects that some models have (animation etc.).

Rod

ualani

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Re: DX10 Object Conversion Discussion - (Formerly "CIRP!!!!! WOW!)
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2014, 04:11:27 PM »
Good post above, Agood. I found that there is a rare .bmp that doesn't seem to want to convert for some reason, but don't seem to create any display problems.

A few other random comments:

Note that there is no documentation that comes with the Convimx utility, but Agood explained things very well and concisely.

When batch converting a large number of files at once, the Convimx utility will appear to quit responding or lock up, which is normal; it is still working in the background. Be patient.

To be safe, and perhaps overkill, I ran all of the textures in my various texture folders through the conversion process - .dds and .bmp. Again, I just wanted to be on the safe side.

When running FSX/DX10 after converting your textures, run the RTMM scenery checker and the snowdrift should now be visible (object #7.) If it is, then you've done something right! YAY! Not everything always goes right with FSX!

Scenery check #2:
If you haven't done so already, download and install the "RTMM Legacy Collection." Go to "Mesa Lake", which is located at approximately N 55° 23' 16.7994 W 131° 6' 57.6 (if my conversion from decimal to DMS is correct.) You should see a complete pier in front of the cabin and not just a couple of pilings if you're conversions have worked. Here is a past discussion of this display issue: http://forum.mistymoorings.com/index.php?topic=1963.0

As I've mentioned numerous times, there is absolutely no need to purchase and use Addon Converter X if you convert your textures. Addon Converter X can will render odd looking graphic abnormalities with some water and terrain features - and not just within ORBX/Tongass Fjords/RTMM areas - but also in default FSX landmasses. (I spent many hours trying to figure out why areas that were previously fine suddenly looked terrible. I hadn't flown outside of my ORBX regions for some time after installing ACX, so I didn't connect with the fact that ACX was playing havoc with default FSX terrain. A real nightmare to track down.) That being said, Addon Converter X will solve some texture problems (not all) if you only use the freeware ver3.2.2 of the DX10 shader patch and not Steve's DX10 Fixer (http://forum.avsim.net/topic/387343-the-how-to-doc/)

EDIT:From post #2 here, which should put the issue to bed once and for all:

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/433879-thinking-of-doing-a-second-attempt-switching-from-dx9-dx10/

"Regarding AddonConverterX - it's not needed anymore, as the Fixer does all that it did, plus correcting the somewhat crippled DX10 functionality and adding features to correct deficient and erroneous objects(i.e devs who use old tech and tools when creating FSX objects), while also making obsolescent objects work again!"

Doug mentions that he is compiling a list of objects used in RTMM scenery that don't properly render in DX10 and is working on placing substitutes that will show up in various scenery files, so watch for his list. However most of us also fly in scenery areas outside of RTMM as well and many designers have used the same objects the RTMM designers also use. Therefore, I recommend that you take the time to just go ahead and convert all of your texture libraries so that your entire scenery collection is DX10 compatible and be done with it. As Agood posted above, it doesn't take that long to do and once done forget it forever and enjoy.

Also, don't forget that if you install any new object libraries you should run Convimx on them to bring them up to snuff as well.

Please post in the DX10/P3D discussion area if you have any questions, comments, or problems.

Now, go discover RTMM the way it is meant to be!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 04:34:45 PM by ualani »
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