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Return to Misty Moorings (FSX/P3D/MSFS2020) => Misty Flying Club and Multi Player => Topic started by: Stearmandriver on April 02, 2018, 07:37:28 PM

Title: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 02, 2018, 07:37:28 PM
Hey all!

I had a maybe fun idea; thought I'd throw it out for consideration.    :)

So,  I've been having fun with the new MFC (when I can sim which hasn't been often lately), and since one of the first tours has us visiting Annette island,  I loaded up the PANT fly in scenery which for some reason I'd never tried.   Very nice btw!  But, since I happened to be experimenting with the Flight Replicas Super Cub Ultra  (man,  what a better flight model than their original Super Cub), I started noodling around with the STOL contest line on the aux runway...

... which led to wondering how a group of simmers flying together online could hold a STOL contest,  how it could be fairly judged etc.  I thought about users installing landing distance gauges and self-reporting, but this wouldn't honor distance from a known point (threshold) nor would it disqualify early touchdowns (note that I'm not suggesting anyone would cheat; those things are just difficult to self- determine).  I figured we would need a judge / observer for this...

Which led to messing around with measuring and drawing lines across the strip in ADE to create a scenery with a grid of distance markings at the end of the runway.  Theoretically, a "judge" could set up a view position right on the threshold line to verify a legal touchdown,  then zap to an overhead view and count the lines on the runway up to the main gear once the plane stops,  for an accurate landing distance.   I've tried to draw the grid with accurate distance measurements so it should roughly match a landing distance gauge if a pilot might be using one..  but the important thing would be that competitors would all be against the same scenery grid.

Takeoff distance would have to be judged similarly,  probably using distance marker signs and a side view?

There would definitely be some logistical complexity to planning something like this,  and there would probably have to be a minimum level of interest expressed ahead of time to make it worthwhile.   It'd be a bummer to put in the time planning and have two people show up (says the guy who possibly wouldn't show up anyway since all my free time to sim is usually later at night lol).

For competitors though,  it could be pretty simple.  Just install a piece of RTMM scenery (with the runway markings) and show up and fly your best  ;-).

There are all sorts of fun options involving different classes of aircraft,  group fly - ins to pre-position etc,  if folks wanted... but it could be much simpler too.

 I've never heard of an online group doing something like this.   Thoughts?  Would anyone else find that fun?   ;D
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: jeff3163 on April 02, 2018, 07:57:29 PM
     It seems to me that an STOL contest is a multiplayer flight where your departure and arrival airport are the same.   ;D   I sometimes fly around the area while waiting for a flight to get going.  This would be the same, except everyone is doing it.  I've said before that Annette Island STOL site needs to be used by RTMM.  This is what I was talking about.  I would be interested in STOL fly-ins at PANT or PAVD, or wherever. 
     I am located in the Northwest Washington State area, Pacific time zone.  It's hard to schedule for a worldwide community.  Weekends are best for me.   ;)
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 02, 2018, 08:49:58 PM
Exactly,  Jeff!  I've been looking forward to some group RTMM flights for a while and was happy to hear of the new setup,  but ut doesn't seem to be getting much use yet (at least nor when I'm on).  I've been flying my RTMM flights connected to Discord and FSCloud since they were announced and I've yet to see anyine else online,  though I'm usually on later at night.  I thought maybe an event like this could jumpstart things?  Might even bring some new folks in ..

BTW I'm near Bremerton so you and I are on the same time zone anyway  ;).

I agree that scheduling something like this is tough,  with folks all over the world.  I also don't know how large of a community we actually are.   Flight simming in general is kind of a niche,  and I'll bet the majority of those folks are in the flight levels.   Of the bush fliers,  how many are interested in social events etc? I honestly have no idea.

I also understand there's a lot of work going on behind the scenes here now with the projects already ongoing.   I'm not meaning to interrupt anything or make any demands  ;).  If there is genuine interest from the RTMM gurus,  I'd be glad to volunteer to help set it up.  Even if I couldn't participate schedule - wise,  it'd be vicarious fun!  I'd be glad to do the to/landing zone gridding since I already kinda have a workflow down,  tedious though it may be...
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: nbrich1 on April 03, 2018, 08:08:13 AM
Well we do have all the resources for multi up and running I just haven't had much time to set anything up as for events as I have been building stuff for the MFC: Ie system flight legs and tours.. But hey between Discord and events, and hook up to the multi client.. everything is in place to do this but in the last month honestly I have barely kicked on Discord but even when test flying I will pop up FSCloud so online. (On FSCloud I am MFC0002-my MFC pilot id).  Stearmandriver what is your FSCloud Id? And will watch for you in the Cloud air and on Discord.

(Jeff and I used to fly together Sunday afternoons, but we haven't done that for a couple months either). Maybe this is an opportunity for someone to take the ball on this one and set up events or group flights, cause honestly I haven't had the time to do it yet. 

Like take 3 legs of the intro tour .. PF20-PANT-PAKT. that alone is very fun to fly as a group. Brad and I did it a couple of weeks ago in a test fly. Group is fun to do.. no matter where you fly. (At PANT, I keep the scenery test in, plus the Annette Island Fly-In).. Great to see these pieces but there is so many places to fly up here and not so easy ones. But fly a few legs of a tour.. or a few legs of the RTMM FP, All make nice trips and all the FP are available to all ..easy to come up with common flight legs for a group to fly.

Just need someone to put a few together, or a few guys to rotate to set something up - which could be posted on MFC Discord (I set up a Discord posting channel for that under- Downloads > group-events-downloads) so an announcement and with a FP download could be posted, figure out the times to fly and day and announce it.. like many are on different time zones but worth a try to start getting a core group of multi flyers together.. I'm in (but I just don't have time to set it up right now).   

Norm
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: MFC0001 on April 03, 2018, 05:19:52 PM
This is exactly what flying clubs do....does anyone remember throwing a bag of flour out the window at a target?  Norm and I did do a take a picture of the  object  ....kind of reminded me of sailplane competitions we used to have when I flew real gliders.  It is the things that make us better "bush pilots".  I think it would be fun to try especially when you factor in a -600 fpm landing rate into the mix.  I'm game, but as already suggested. timing might be a problem.

Henry
MFC0001
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 04, 2018, 02:21:26 AM
Norm, I know you've done a ton for RTMM with the MFC stuff and you're still pretty saturated with that.   Believe me,  I didn't mean to suggest I was throwing another thing on your plate with the multiplayer stuff.   I know it'll get more popular as people become more familiar with it.   I like your idea of using your MFC number as an FSCloud callsign, I'll switch to that as well.  I don't remember who I am lol...  MFC0015 maybe.

Henry,  right on,  exactly what I'm saying.   I'll noodle with this a bit more and maybe make a quick video of a STOL circuit to test the judging.   I'm thinking the landing will be easier to judge than the takeoff... experimentation needed. 
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Bradallen43 on April 04, 2018, 09:35:19 AM
Well the original design ideas I had for the PANT Fly-In scenery was for exactly this kind of thing. If somebody should create a distance measuring object/s, then let's get that added and have a little real time STOL competition. I'm hitting -27 fpm on my landings lately so, BRING IT!!!

Brad
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Dieter on April 04, 2018, 10:47:08 AM
The Valdez/PAVD STOL competition is famous and known far beyond the frontiers of Alaska.

Our "Backcountry Pilots Club" did a lot of competitions there during our multiplayer online sessions.
Attached is a small bgl file in zip format for Valdez designed by Urs Burkhardt.
On the taxiway is a 300 meters marking on the ground with additional markers every 30 meters => every 100ft.
The tiny file was originally designed for FSX but should work in P3D. Orbx SAK is needed.
You might give it a try.
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 04, 2018, 01:28:29 PM
 Thanks Dieter, I'll definitely take a look at that.   Were you guys judging takeoff distance too? What was your technique for that? It'd be fun to judge this using the Valdez rules,  but takeoffs seem like they'd be harder to measure...
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Dieter on April 05, 2018, 07:32:10 AM
Measuring wasn't that easy. (one should not take the "contest"  too seriously)
We had two observers during take off and landing phase: 1 was looking in birdsview on the test section, 1 was looking from the side (90-degree angle to the test section.)
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: nbrich1 on April 05, 2018, 12:26:05 PM
Great, Thank-you for the Stol file for PAVD Dieter. File activated and going for a test drive..lol.

Norm
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 05, 2018, 12:34:18 PM
All right,  did battle and won with my scenery tools last night... Gonna grid up the PANT runway tonight and test out measurements.   I'm using textures from ADE vs objects,  should keep performance impact down (cause I need every advantage there.)  Will report back.
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 05, 2018, 05:16:38 PM
Giggity.  All textures, so basically no fps impact.  Start line is thick yellow,  thinner yellow is 100ft, thicker white lines are 20ft marks, thin white lines are 5ft marks.  Marked out 200ft, plenty enough to test this Cub.  In a quick test using FSRecorder and watching myself from outside views, I'd say we can measure takeoff within a few feet, landing almost to the foot.

EDIT:  only the striping is my work.   The rest of that is the "Annette Island Fly In" RTMM scenery.

(http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2018/04/06/fsx_180405_1410449.jpg)
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: jeff3163 on April 05, 2018, 07:38:49 PM
 :o  That looks good.  ;)   Beautiful work there.   8)
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 05, 2018, 07:51:25 PM
 Thanks Jeff.   I'm sure you know this but I realized I should have said it - only the stripes are mine,  the rest is all the RTMM "Annette Island Fly In" scenery.
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: spud on April 06, 2018, 03:56:12 AM
Are the lines in a 'scenery folder' that can be added to the sim (FSX) with a simple download?  If so then it would be simple to have them showing (for contest flying) or turn them off when not in use via the Scenery Library.
 8)
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 06, 2018, 06:16:04 AM
Hey Spud,

Ya just beat me to it.  Yessir, the lines are a separate scenery item to be added to your scenery library just like any other RTMM scenery.  I've attached them to this post if anyone wants to take a look.  There's 400ft marked now, with distances labeled (in feet).

These are painted on runway 20 at PANT (Annette Island).  I designed them to fit with the "Annette Island Fly In" scenery, but they work just as well without that scenery loaded, as long as you're running ORBX PFJ.

Video demo to follow, but maybe not until tomorrow sometime.
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: jeff3163 on April 06, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
Quote
Thanks Jeff.   I'm sure you know this but I realized I should have said it - only the stripes are mine,  the rest is all the RTMM "Annette Island Fly In" scenery.

     Yep, I knew that.  I've got your lines installed and going to do some practice runs now.   ;)

     Here are some runs I took in 2011 and recorded.  -->  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCBmITFvYBk&list=PLB77F6881658CDC6A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCBmITFvYBk&list=PLB77F6881658CDC6A)

    ... and some Valdez STOL action ...
 
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 06, 2018, 04:15:31 PM
Good stuff Jeff!  Thanks for the Valdez footage,  and nice runs of your own there.   Was that the FR Super Cub? 

Here's a quick circuit in the Super Cub Ultra,  showing the lines being used for scoring (and it was a fun landing  ;D.)

Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: jeff3163 on April 07, 2018, 01:42:10 AM
Wow!  Very impressive performance.   8)  I was using an A2A Piper J-3 Cub.  I have the Flight Replica Super Cub also.  Great video.  Thanks.   :) 8)
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 07, 2018, 06:01:36 PM
Thanks Jeff.   I love the A2A Cub, I should have recognized it.   How did you get that level of performance out of it though?  I remember it flying more like... well,  like a 65hp J-3!

I've been reading the Valdez rules and thinking we could incorporate their poker run too...  this really could be fun.  If nothing else,  the 2017 Valdez fly in poker run would make a good little MFC tour  (hint hint Norm :) ).  I'm gonna fly the route myself when I have a chance... it looks like their way of running a "real life tour".
http://www.valdezflyin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-PokerRunPacket.pdf
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: MFC0001 on April 07, 2018, 06:12:45 PM
I want to see the pictures of all the aircraft on their noses from too much breaking!!  I watched a student do that to a nice stearman a few years back.....what a mess.

Good, job....I shall give it a try

Henry
MFC0001
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: nbrich1 on April 07, 2018, 06:48:28 PM
Thanks Jeff.   I love the A2A Cub, I should have recognized it.   How did you get that level of performance out of it though?  I remember it flying more like... well,  like a 65hp J-3!

I've been reading the Valdez rules and thinking we could incorporate their poker run too...  this really could be fun.  If nothing else,  the 2017 Valdez fly in poker run would make a good little MFC tour  (hint hint Norm :) ).  I'm gonna fly the route myself when I have a chance... it looks like their way of running a "real life tour".
http://www.valdezflyin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-PokerRunPacket.pdf

Ok Stearman!! Got the PDF doc.. interesting.. well.. will try to do it when possible..lol.. looks like a fun hop ?.. If can figure out how to do it..lol. 
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 08, 2018, 04:30:09 PM
 No doubt,  Henry.   That's funny you saw a Stearman do it... it wasn't in IL was it?   ;D. The Stearman I used to teach in apparently had such an episode in its past... unbeknownst to the current owner when he bought it.   It doesn't appear in the mx logbooks  ::)...  his face when we heard the story was... a study,  I think they say?   ;D

Has anyone tried the lines in P3d yet?  I'm still on FSX, planning to make the move eventually when I do a new machine build... in the meantime,  I don't want to go through the install just to test some lines ;-).
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: MFC0001 on April 08, 2018, 05:19:55 PM
No the Stearman was in Texas, just North of Dallas.  I mostly flew sailplanes out of that airport and at Caddo Mills.  We did a complete recover of the Stearman and it wasn't quite ready for flight when I left. 

Henry
MFC0001
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: jeff3163 on April 08, 2018, 06:03:53 PM
Quote
Has anyone tried the lines in P3d yet?  I'm still on FSX, planning to make the move eventually when I do a new machine build... in the meantime,  I don't want to go through the install just to test some lines ;-).

     I put them into my P3dv4.2, and they are just fine.   8)
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: BBQSteve on April 09, 2018, 11:24:07 AM
Confirm perfect in v4.
Title: Re: STOL Contest?
Post by: Stearmandriver on April 10, 2018, 07:12:52 AM
 Thanks guys.   Now we just need to test it in multiplayer and see if FSCloud is smooth enough to eyeball a takeoff point,  or if we'd need to use JoinFS.  I'm on the road a few days a week and time at home is mostly occupied with family (not that that's a bad thing), but I'll be around this thurs evening approx 2130pdt (0430z) or maybe Monday afternoon... that's what I know for now,  in the unlikely event it matches up with anyone else.  Or,  if anyone else tries it in multiplayer, report back!