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Return to Misty Moorings (FSX/P3D) => The Moorings - On the Water => Topic started by: Doug on August 21, 2015, 10:30:10 AM

Title: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on August 21, 2015, 10:30:10 AM
Possible new area to explore - Pilotable Shipping

Marcel found the Jellaire Autopilot that works fairly well on "pilotable" boats. Mostly the problem with boating at RTMM is that we didn't have an autopilot ... and steering a boat for 5 hours can get a little boring. With the "new" autopilot, we've been able to make flight plans from SPB to SPB with Plan G that SOME of the boats track perfectly.  Some boats do not track, they chase the needle, others work just like an airplane.  For me, the Deltasim Boats (Smitt Rotterdam) is very reliable (payware).  Problems we are encountering is no reverse on boats (braking), etc. 

Marcel has also met (email) Chuck Backus who seems to be expert in making pilotable boats. Chuck has indicated he might help us out.  We are going to invite him to join us here and maybe through this discussion we can really turn the RTMM "The Moorings" into a 5 star site.

(Personally, I am really enjoying boating with the new autopilot ... it is a very relaxing way to "sim." Turn it on, set the autopilot, then sit back with a good book and Pandora and ENJOY THE CRUISE just as you would in real life. The scenery in the RTMM area is breathtaking down on the water ... it gives you a whole new perspective or our area. Also the navigation is fun ... you can't fly over a group of islands, you have to navigate "through" them. And you lose the three dimensional viewpoint, knowing what is "over there beyond that hill" ... it becomes a realistic TWO dimensional world.)
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on August 21, 2015, 11:43:08 AM
Observations:   The Deltasim Daisy ... great "sized" boat for a lot of our needs. But mine "chases the needle". I wonder if there is a setting in the steering area to dampen this?  I don't see it with the Smitt Rotterdam. I also notice the Gemini Pro tracks just fine.  On the Gemini Pro, the speed control does not work. If you turn it on, it is set at "00" and the boat goes to "00", but you cannot increase/decrease the speed, it only stays on zero. Turn it off, use the throttle, all is well.
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on August 21, 2015, 01:12:48 PM
For anything to run at a set speed, you need to make sure the "autothrottle" is active in the config file.
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on August 21, 2015, 01:30:22 PM
Hi Jeff ... Here's what I have in the Gemini Pro ... is this correct? Or is "it" somewhere else?

[autopilot]
autopilot_available=1
flight_director_available=0
autothrottle_available=1
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on August 21, 2015, 02:09:23 PM
Yep, and make sure the "autothrottle_max_rpm" is 100000, or some big number like that.  Not 0.99, or 99, as is usually the case.
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on August 21, 2015, 02:40:26 PM
Jeff ... That fixed it!  I set that autothrottle_max_rpm to 100,000 ... it was at 90. Now the speed gauge works perfectly. Thank you.  (Fixing it on the other boats).

Did you say you had reverse on some of the boats?
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on August 21, 2015, 03:48:10 PM
Yes, you just have to activate reverse in the config, and tell it how "strong" to be. 

Examples taken from MY Smit-Rotterdam Tug airplane.cfg:

Quote
[GeneralEngineData]
min_throttle_limit=-0.95   

[propeller]
prop_reverse_available= 1
minimum_reverse_beta= -14.000
*Always backup your configs before editing them.
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on August 21, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
Perfect ... ...you just press F2 and hold it and it backs up now. Great!

** Good point about backing up any of this stuff before messing with it.
When I'm playing with a panel, the FIRST thing I do is copy the original and place it there
When I make changes I always put a "// changed by Doug"" after the changes I make so I can find them if I make a mistake.

Jeff ... on the FAQ page under "Boating Tools" ... I'm going to start putting these things in so you won't have to keep answering the questions.  If there are things you think should be added, send them to me and I'll put them in. I'll make them alphabetical .. "Reverse" is just the first one.
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on August 22, 2015, 08:36:07 AM
I found and downloaded a version of the FSX airboat with new FDE by Chuck B. at http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?catid=114&sort=d&page=2&pp=20 (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?catid=114&sort=d&page=2&pp=20)
I installed the new AP and tried it out in the little cruise suggested by Doug in answer #123 at the working on the boats section.
I made a comparison with our own FSX airboat. (Watch: don't keep both the boats together in yr fs directory, move 1 out).
I invite you to do the same. The boat itself is not completely finished, but the way the AP reacts is astonishing.
What's yr opinion?
Cheers
Marcel
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on August 22, 2015, 08:39:49 AM
sorry I saw that the link is not working. Probably because you have to register first before you can start downloading. Therefore here the link from the homepage: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/content.php (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/content.php).
If you have still problems, just yell at me...
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on August 25, 2015, 05:31:29 PM
I spent the whole evening wondering how many hours it must have costed to create this masterpiece.http://simviation.com/1/browse-Misc-58-1 (http://simviation.com/1/browse-Misc-58-1).
I downloaded the 1.2 version and am sailing for the last couple of hours out of 7k2. Amazing...
Marcel
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on August 25, 2015, 07:32:57 PM
I spent the whole evening wondering how many hours it must have costed to create this masterpiece.http://simviation.com/1/browse-Misc-58-1 (http://simviation.com/1/browse-Misc-58-1).
I downloaded the 1.2 version and am sailing for the last couple of hours out of 7k2. Amazing...
Marcel
Hello Marcel,
     Are you talking about the HMS Bounty?  That is a great one.  I've wished for a "wind powered" ship for a while.  I've got my wish with this one.  I discovered them a couple of months ago.  I thought it was already in the marina, but I didn't see it.  Not sure if I have version 1.2 or not.  Now I gotta check.  Thanks Marcel.

     Ok, I'm back.  I grabbed the 1.2 update, and also the additional camera views.  It says to set the "realism" setting in your sim to HARD, for the best push from the wind.  The EASY setting does little or nothing.  I didn't know that.   :P  I'm going sailing!   8)

Heading out of Herring Bay, the wind is pushing me south at 9 knots.  ;)
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/jeff3163/MOON/Flight%20Simulator%20X%20Files/2015/Prepar3D%202015-08-25%2017-46-07-99.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on August 26, 2015, 09:27:09 AM
Yes, the Bounty really merits to be in the marina.
Did you try out the tug-boat modus and the Anchordropping?
The tug modus is really interesting when it comes to maneuvring and mooring. Something we look for at all our boats. I wonder how they do that...
I don't know whether the anchor dropping is really a technical feature or just a graphic gimmick.
My test bench to see whether a ship can be "parked" is PAW1: you moore yr ship and put the weather on heavy thunderstorm. Some boats, stay stable lying at the dock (even small ones like the Riva or the Dolphin), others, no matter how big or heavy they are, just drift away.
The Bounty is one of the ships that don't move, with or without anchor.
I'm working my way through the posts in the "working on the boats", because I am eager to know more about ships FDE's and FDE mods. You know of any structured tutorial or well explained tips about this subject?
Cheers
Marcel
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on August 26, 2015, 08:10:00 PM
Hi Marcel,
     Do you want some interesting reading.  Try this:

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc526949.aspx

Enjoy!   ;)
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on August 27, 2015, 06:31:00 PM
Hi Jeff
I've been reading this several times already, but the link between what Microsoft writes and the cfg. files is very tough to decipher. I went through all the posts in the "working on the boats" topic (not easy with all the attachments removed), but I see that you have been doing a lot of trial and error too.
I read somewhere that Microsoft has never published a real tutorial on FDE.
So it is desperately looking for someone who has the knowledge and wants to share it with us.
I hope that Chuck B, is keeping his word and will help us, even if it is (like he says) one boat at the time.
Is there really no one else at RTMM, who knows a boat designer?
This thing keeps me awake at night...
Cheers
Marcel
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on August 27, 2015, 07:27:22 PM
Hello Marcel,
     It is frustrating that those attached pictures have been deleted.  We'll have to post new ones as we go on, that are more up-to-date.  That Microsoft ESP SDK publication is a handy reference when trying to wrap your head around a function, or what syntax or parameters are relevant. 

     No boat designers have stepped forward yet.  But, we've never called out to them either.  Is there a boat designer in the house?  The marina is pretty quiet, usually.  No comments, no pictures, no stories.  But the thread gets many views.  People are boating out there.  But nobody is talking about it.   ;)
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on August 28, 2015, 10:14:05 AM
I found this document.
http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=fs_flight_dynamics_v1.0.zip&CatID=root&Go=Search (http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=fs_flight_dynamics_v1.0.zip&CatID=root&Go=Search)
Looks rather complicated but maybe interesting for us who want to develop RTMM boats...
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Napamule on September 04, 2015, 12:39:28 AM
Marcel,
I'm heeere! Let the fun begin! One boat at a time, of course. Who's on first?

What day is it? What month? I got lost on the way here. Veered off into the FAQ page and couldn't get it all read. Then I went to other departments and got eye-ball-itis (my brain hurt too-hehe). This site has a LOT of reading and not to mention tons of downloads for scenery, etc. But I can handle it-give me a weak or too. I'll be hanging around here on a daily basis as I am registered now. Certified, too.
Chuck B
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on September 04, 2015, 07:05:22 AM
Hey Chuck, welcome aboard!!!

Doug
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Bradallen43 on September 04, 2015, 05:05:18 PM
As we always point out to all newcomers, find and install all of our libraries of objects first.

Brad
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: stiletto2 on September 04, 2015, 05:22:38 PM
Welcome, Chuck!

The fun is just beginning!

Rod
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on September 05, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
Well, glad you made it Chuck.
You will not be disappointed, I can assure you...
There is enough to keep you busy for years!!!
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: marc2140 on October 08, 2015, 09:34:02 AM
Hi to the boaters
I think I got some breakthrough in the subject of REVERSE THRUST FOR SHIPS.
I specifically was looking for a solution for boats with a piston engine (boats with turbo props and jet engines don't seem very realistic, do they?).
To me, many changes in the flight dynamics file (aircraft cfg) often looked like trial and error solutions. So i wanted to find out if there was'nt a universal method that could be applied.
Therefore first a small theoretical framework, but as simple as possible (my excuses to people who know much more about this and who'll say that I am oversimplifying):
A piston engine in FSX delivers forces that make a shaft turn in 1 direction only. That movement can not be reversed (i.e. anti clockwise). So reverse thrust does not come from the engine.
On the shaft sits the propellor.
There are 2 kinds of propellors.
A fixed gear propellor that can not create a reverse thrust,
and a constant speed propellor that can.
Why? Because it can feather. This is what happens when you feather a propellor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT3Pn6o6Dco (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT3Pn6o6Dco)
So it can create a reverse thrust, because it can change the angle of attack of the blades in the air or in the water.
Back to FSX:
It is actually rather simple to create a reverse thrust for a ship.
You go to the aircraft CFG file, look for the propeller section and see that you set the following parameters:
propeller_type= 0
beta_max= 65
beta_min= 15
min_gov_rpm= 500
prop_feathering_available= 1
prop_auto_feathering_available= 1
min_rpm_for_feather= 500
beta_feather= -65
prop_reverse_available= 1
minimum_on_ground_beta= 1
minimum_reverse_beta= -14
The rpm values may somewhat vary and also the beta values (feather angles) are not absolute. But I am pretty sure that the reverse beta must be a negative value.
And maybe a propeller with 4 blades works better for a boat, but I don't know for sure.
How do you make this work when piloting?
First F1 and then F2 will not work.
There is a command Cntr+F2, that is often misunderstood. In most literature it says that it reduces the RPM. But in Microsoft literature I found that it actually decreases the propellor beta (angle of attack of the blades), which means that it is the feathering command.
So if you are piloting a ship and want to reverse:
Push F1 first, keep Cntr+F2 down for some seconds, give throttle again and you'll be in reverse.
To return to normal thrust: again push F1, then Cntr+F4 for some seconds and give throttle again.
VoilĂ , problem #1 of the pilotable shipping solved.
Up to the next one: improving the autopilot tracking...
Cheers
Marcel



 
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on July 06, 2019, 08:50:09 AM
Hi Garry,
     This thread is almost four years old now.  You're also "off topic" for this thread. 

     That being said, I do have the gator bait air boat, but have not tested it in P3Dv4.3.  Here is a copy of the air boat's folder.  I couldn't find the original zip file, so not sure about gauges, effects, sounds, etc.  If you need those, they are probably on my system.  Sorry for the disorganization, I haven't had my morning coffee yet.
     On a footnote, I remember the airboat was pretty flakey.  The hovercraft is better.  But you decide.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jx6wohrlgg8g93w/FSX_Air_Boat.zip?dl=0



ps- Whatever happened to Chuck? (Napamule)  :P ???
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on July 06, 2019, 09:27:06 AM
Jeff ... don't you think we should document Marcel's reverse thrust comments somewhere, maybe on the boating page? That seems pretty interesting and perhaps important. Seems we should put that "somewhere safe."

Doug
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: jeff3163 on July 06, 2019, 09:31:21 AM
Jeff ... don't you think we should document Marcel's reverse thrust comments somewhere, maybe on the boating page? That seems pretty interesting and perhaps important. Seems we should put that "somewhere safe."

Doug

Sure.  I agree.   8)
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Garry on July 06, 2019, 10:11:25 AM
Quite right Jeff.  Apologies.

I have just found the zip file here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/7jicrgrv8hini9h/fs9_fsx_air_boat_1.zip.

Perhaps Doug can update 'The Marina' page?
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Garry on July 06, 2019, 10:12:27 AM
Jeff - I removed the offending post.
Title: Re: Pilotable Shipping
Post by: Doug on July 06, 2019, 11:15:37 AM
Jeff ... I've got it on the TO DO list. I'll doc it in a pdf and we'll put it on The Moorings page. Thank you - Doug