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Return to Misty Moorings (FSX/P3D/MSFS2020) => Addon Scenery and Enhancements => Topic started by: Doug on December 06, 2014, 08:22:47 AM

Title: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 06, 2014, 08:22:47 AM
Project Overview and Planning: We have been discussing "Fuel Management" strategies for RTMM. (You can see the beginnings of this discussion HERE (http://forum.mistymoorings.com/index.php?topic=2367.msg19320#new). I've asked there that that discussion come here so we can focus on this project.

Many people have asked for means and methods of improving our fuel availability for sections of RTMM. Many people like to fly using "real fuel levels" rather than using the "unlimited fuel" option in the sims. So we are going to explore this area and discuss the best way to do this.  We could just let the RTMM team figure this one out, but we thought it would be fun to open it up to the community for ideas and discussion.

First, lets look at our assets for the project:

1. We have 50 RTMM airports and 19 Tongass Airports where fuel triggers could be placed. That alone is quite a list of potential refueling sites. Look at ICAO HERE (http://return.mistymoorings.com/faq/#i).

2. We have the major airports that are already in the scenery (PANT, PAKT, etc)

3. For the remote locations we have the Brad's BBQ objects that we have placed at riverheads to start the boat trips, but these are remotely located and feasible for fuel triggers. Steve is making some new objects in this area that you will love, but basically, they create a "remote" and realistic refueling possibility ... and they can be positioned anywhere.

4. For "airports" we have ADE (Airport Design Editor), refueling stations can be added rather quickly even with refueling start points.

6. For "remote" locations, we have the xml code that Rod Jackson has made for us, we don't need an "airport" to turn on a fuel pump ... so we can use that to place one anywhere (Brad's, etc).

7. Steve has created some signs we can "hang" on the fuel depots indicating if they are "open" (operational) or "closed" (under maintenance, not working, abandoned, etc). So for many of the fuel docks we have ... like on a remote lake, we would hang a "closed" sign on it so people would know it didn't pump fuel.  Those will come in handy as indicators of what we have done, etc.

Placement: What we need to do is decide which of these need fuel triggers, certainly not all of them, but which?

Helicopters: One question I have for helicopters, you land at a pad ... if you are "skid mounted" how do you go over and get the fuel now?  Just wondering how you folks are refueling when you fly with fuel management. This is important as to how we create the solution. For instance the Brad's are out on the water. A floating helipad?  Do we expand the footprint to handle the fuel pump on the Brad's dock and a helipad nearby (that would work).

Simple Proposal: The easiest way to do this is to have folks flying their favorite routes and submitting the need for an active fueling station.  As you find them and report them here, I could keep a list in a thread reply so we could list them as "to do" and "done" ...we would just modifiy the list in the thread to keep it up to date. If we did this over time, we'd eventually have what everyone needs ... doing this over time, not a rush project. You see a need, you report it here, I put it on the "to do" list and in the "done" list when it is completed.  You could even identify the "lake docks" that need the "closed" sign ... we have many, and your help would be appreciated in this area. This would keep it simple. How would one use this for planning ... use the facilities option on a gps?

Complicated: On the ICAO codes, we could indicate which facilities have fuel easily (plenty of room for another column), but this would leave out non-airport locations. We could put a "refueling table" below the startup points table on the Here2There page for all locations for refueling.  This would be very complicated, and if you look at "how would you use it for planning," I don't see how it could be used. I may come down to a big map for our 4 areas (PFJ, SAK, TF and PNW) with grids. We'd letter/number them and each fueling station would have a grid designation. If you flying in the Bella Bella area, you'd look for that grid letter/number and go to the table where the grids would be alphabetically listed. This would be a lot of work and I wonder if that many people would use it considering the workload.

So the thread is open for discussion and ideas ... have at it.

Doug


Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: ualani on December 06, 2014, 09:00:32 AM
Doug,
My immediate thought is that maybe on the scenery download page you could put a "Fuel Available" tag on any location that has it. Kinda like you have the "FSX DX10 P3D Ready" tag. This way people can refer to the scenery list to see if fuel is available at any given location.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 06, 2014, 09:07:14 AM
Yes, that's an idea ... I could make a little button with a fuel pump on it ... so people would know the trigger was active. Easy to do.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Bradallen43 on December 06, 2014, 03:16:40 PM
Doug,

I like this idea too but feel it should only be used at places where it makes sense to have any kind of refueling at. Not sure that small locations should have a refueling spot. Places like Mistys, Hollis, Gilbert Bay, Khutzemateen Bear lodge, then yes, I can see that. So I suggest a refueling spot be created at each of our "PF" airstrips and that makes sense to me. Other locations up north in SAK and Tongass could have some too, like Gilbert Bay in SAK, Navman's retreat in Tongass could use a refueling spot.

Brad
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Trex3D on December 06, 2014, 05:39:27 PM
Gentlemen,

Trying not to get too technical here but only meant as a general reference for those who are curious about ideal VFR flight fuel reserve guidelines in the U.S. :

FWIW, here's what FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations) part 91 sec.  151 says on fuel requirements for flight in VFR conditions as follows:

a) No person may begin a flight in an airplane under VFR conditions unless (considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough fuel to fly to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal cruising speed --

(1) During the day, to fly after that for at least 30 minutes; or

(2) At night, to fly after that for at least 45 minutes.

(b) No person may begin a flight in a rotorcraft under VFR conditions unless (considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough fuel to fly to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal cruising speed, to fly after that for at least 20 minutes.
 
Enjoy!  ;)

Doug,

In the RW, helo ground refueling can be done either on the helipad using a mobile refueling unit or in the hangar but obviously these options are limitations in flightsim at this point hence I just hover taxi (if flying  a skid chopper such as a Bell 206) to the nearest fuel pump, land at the designated refueling spot and trigger the fill up to 100%. Wheeled choppers like the AW109 or MH-60 Blackhawk are capable of doing ground taxi similar to fixed wing, if preferred.  I usually do "hot refueling" (while the engines are running) in transit during touch & go's  as well as do hover hops in case of floating or raised helipads if a functioning fuel pump is available nearby :)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: corbu1 on December 06, 2014, 07:06:58 PM
Doug,

I like this idea too but feel it should only be used at places where it makes sense to have any kind of refueling at. Not sure that small locations should have a refueling spot. Places like Mistys, Hollis, Gilbert Bay, Khutzemateen Bear lodge, then yes, I can see that. So I suggest a refueling spot be created at each of our "PF" airstrips and that makes sense to me. Other locations up north in SAK and Tongass could have some too, like Gilbert Bay in SAK, Navman's retreat in Tongass could use a refueling spot.

Brad


First, I'd like to say a big thank you for adding working refueling to RTMM!! That is great.
I also like the idea with the fuel button in scenery list....also that only "bigger" RTMM locations should have working refueling capabilities. Also places open for the public like brad's BBQ's or bigger lodges like Doug's Outfitters could be used as refueling spots. I don't think it would be realistic that smaller locations or very remoted cabins are fitted with working refueling.

Regarding the helicopters:
Ditto to what Trex3D said.
normally I choose the needed fuel in the sim before running the engines from FSX menubar.
But for refueling while on Flight, working refueling spots  are very nice....Then I approach or land on  the location's helipad and hovertaxi to the refueling spot.
I personally wouldn't like a single helipad at a location with a refueling spot attached to the helipad. That would mean every time I land there, my heli would get a full load of fuel...whether I want the fuel or not. This is an limitation in the sim I don't like.
I'd like the refueling spot some distance away fom the helipad, but good accessable via hovertaxi from the helipad to the refueling spot and vice versa. I think having this in mind when optimising refueling spots for fixed wing, they should also work fine for the Helicopters.
...Just my few opinions. I'm curious about other folks thoughts regarding refueling helicopters.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: ualani on December 06, 2014, 07:32:16 PM
Just a comment about my experiences flying in the remote Canadian bush: I've flown out of numerous docks where the pilot pumped fuel out of 55 gallon drum or portable fuel tanks with a hand cranked pump. Some pumps are even powered by a 12 volt battery. Therefore I think being able to refuel at any location is not an unreasonable expectation.

Notice the fuel tank and hand pump in the back of the pickup truck in this link. The lake we flew into on that occasion also had 55 gallon fuel drums at the bush dock.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tkybra07ii7i3pp/Fuel%20at%20the%20dock.jpg?dl=0

Just my 2 cents.

Steve

Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: ualani on December 06, 2014, 07:37:12 PM
Klaus,
One workaround to the getting fueled if you want it or not is to fly away from the fuel spot that just topped you off, pause the sim and then reset your fuel tanks to whatever you like.

Steve
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 06, 2014, 08:55:03 PM
Proposed Project Basics OK, here's the "basics" on how we are going to work on the project. Some of you may not know how a "fuel trigger" works and why the folks here are "hovering" to refuel. The pic below will explain that. When you put in a "fuel trigger" ... you place a "footprint" for it ... so when an aircraft gets within that boundary, the tanks are filled. But there is a THIRD dimension to it. The box also has ALTITUDE, it goes up.  So if you are in a helicopter and hover over the fuel depot, you are "in the trigger box" and you get refueled.  In my pic you only see 2 sides of the box ... there are 4 sides. 

Seeing the Trigger Box: Also, for people who want to know, if you want to see the green trigger boxes, you go to the FSX.cfg or Prepar3d.Cfg file ... and under [SCENERY] you can add this line:

[SCENERY]
ShowTriggers=1 // added by Doug to show the trigger for the fuel pump

Notice the // ... that allows us to make a comment disregarded by the cfg file. This reminds me I put this into the cfg.  Also, when I do NOT want the triggers (green boxes) to show, I put a // ahead of "ShowTriggers". Then the green boxes you see in the picture below disappear. (Don't start wondering how "smart" I am, Rod Jackson taught me all of this last week! :-)

Heli Refueling: So our "heli" refueling will be by hovering over the fuel depot. If we put a trigger on the helipad, you'd get filled up every time you landed, some people will not like that.  So we have one more left over "quirky thing" from FSX, but that's how we'll deal with it. At least now you know why "hovering would work". The way I fly a helicopter, I'd run out of gas just trying to stay in the box!

NDB's for the Airports: Since we are "into" each airport with Airport Design Editor, I'm going to put putting an NDB in for each one as we go through this fuel trigger project.  The frequency will be 10+the PF number. Misty's Place is PF20, so the frequency for it's NDB is 1020.  I'm purposely choosing the larger number because the NDB freqs in North America are between 190 and 560, so we won'd be having conflicts.  Most will have a range of about 27 miles. Misty's has a 50 mile range, so you can "come home" from almost anywhere in the area. There is also a "new" Misty's Place folder on the scenery page that has the new frequency and "MST" call sign in it. Sorry about all the downloads (if you are keeping up), but that's how we keep making things better for you.

Our To-Do List: On this thread, we'll keep a list of the "TO DO" airports and places that people want done. If you don't want to add a reply here or a suggestion, you can email me your suggestion at refuel@jdlinn.com and I'll put it on the list.  There are many places that will not need a fuel trigger, those will still be dealt with, with a "closed" sign and those will also show on the list. So we will start on the PFxx airports.  Of course the one we have "done" now is Misty's Place ... so it will show up on our "done" list first. That list will be posted in another "reply" on this thread.

ICAO Table on the FAQ Page: On the FAQ page, there is a table there with all of our RTMM ICAO codes, under "I". That list is now up to date, I recently re-edited it. We are going to be adding some columns to that table ... one will be for Fuel ..Y/N another will be the NDB frequency if there is one. That is how we will keep track of the refueling stations. If there is one that is not an airport, I'll put them below the airports with ICAO codes so you can see them.

This project is going to take some time to complete. As we do this, I'll be using ADE and IS3 (for signs and adding the NDB objects). Then they have to be checked, then uploaded, then the Scenery Page updated with the "update date."  Then of course updating the ICAO table and our "to do" list on this thread. So each location, can take time ... now multiply that by the number of locations we'll be working on ... yes, it will be an "on-going" project. It will also take YOUR time, if you want this for your computer, you will have to re-download the updated locations and install them. (I'd rather have your job!).

So add/ask questions as we go, I'll get the "TO DO" project "reply thread section" going soon and start working on the ICAO table on the FAQ page so it is "ready" for the input. (Don't forget, you can click on the picture to make it bigger to see things better).


Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 06, 2014, 09:56:05 PM
RE: Ualani's comment about refueling from 55 gal drums. I've been to places in the Sim world, mostly the Viet Nam War Project I think, but anyway, yeah, you pull up to a stack of fuel drums and it triggers a refuel. Same with parked fuel trucks. Lots of RTMM sites already have drums and/or fuel trucks, right? Wouldn't it just be a matter of setting a trigger on those already existing items?  I'm jazzed about this project. Fuel is cool.
                                        JJ
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 06, 2014, 10:08:08 PM
I see no problem doing this down the line. Also with the new signs Steve has made, placing those near the drums would be the signal the refuel trigger is on. It is our world...no EPA to study the local beetle population first for environmental impact statements.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: spud on December 06, 2014, 11:16:12 PM
Of course fuel can be put into a drum and if roads permit trucked to any location but this is strictly a temporary refueling solution and can't be depended on all the time as a rule.
 8)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 07, 2014, 09:45:23 AM
The New Airports of RTMM Table is being developed on the FAQ page. When we "finish" an airport, we will post it in that table. That will be your signal that the updated airport is ready for download. To make it easier, the AIRPORT NAME will be a link to the new zip file. When this table is finished, we will remove the ICAO table on down the FAQ page and this new table will be our primary information source for RTMM airports. On the bottom of this new table, I will keep the project list for what I'm working on next.

Watch for Question Marks ... I wait on work until the question is answered.
 
When we finish an airport on the bottom list, I'll delete it there and I'll add the new entry to the top once it passes "QC." For now, we will use the Misc Information to show what was added, we can use that for other things in the future.  (link) (http://www.return.mistymoorings.com/faq/#a)

Fueling Facilities: Not every airport will have a fueling facility. We are going to be "judicious" about entering them. For instance, Herring Bay Cannery, even though close to Misty's Place and PAKT, will have a fueling facility.  But the "pumps" at Lucky Lindy's will have an "out of order" sign on them. The Fuel Y/N box on the new table will be green for fueling, red for no fuel available.

Non-Airport Fueling: We will, on occasion have fuel "available" at a non-airport facility that may be remote. This will only be done occasionally. As we wander through this project, when we find a location or a reason where it would be fun to do, we will do it, let us know and we'll add it to the project list.

Fueling Docks: We will be going through the scenery looking for the fueling docks we have put in (The object used is a long docks with a fueling facility on the end) ... and there are many of them. Most of these will not have fuel available, but when we are done all will have an "out of order" sign to note that to a pilot visiting the site. For now, when you see one, let me know on the thread. I'll add it to the "fueling docks list"  Later, we'll go on a witch hunt for these ... you find it, we'll "sign" it. (NOTAM: That particular object has a problem at the "end" of the pier where you can run into and invisible barrier there. So a red blinking buoy is needed on each also ... this for later).

NDBs We will not be putting an NDB on every airport. We are going to select them by "area".  For instance, Misty's Place will be for that general area, but we won't need one at Herring Bay Cannery or Lucky Lindy's because it is "near" Misty's Place. So these will be scattered, as evenly as we can, across the area. The ID will be a three letter code (per usual) but the frequency will be 10+the PFxx Number. Misty's Place is PF20, the frequency for MST will be 1020.

Signs by Steve We have two new sets of signs that will be coming to you with the coming library update. There is a set of what we call "open" signs and "closed" signs. An example of a closed sign would say "out of order", etc. For the OPEN signs, it will indicate to a pilot that the "fuel trigger" is on and you can pump fuel.  Eventually, all fuel depots in RTMM locations will have a sign. Later, if a fuel pump is encountered in an RTMM location that doesn't have a sign, it should be noted and put on our list for repair. This way, when you "pull up" to the pump, you'll know whether or not it works.

Update: Spud and I have checked our QC process using Lucky Lindy's. It is now on the new table on the FAQ page.  So now we can begin coming through the airports. Again, when you see an airport listed on the top of the new table, the airport name is a link to the NEW file. In the case of Lucky Lindy's, we only added a pump, and a "closed" sign. (link) (http://www.return.mistymoorings.com/faq/#a)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Trex3D on December 08, 2014, 03:29:28 AM
On non-airport fueling, just had a recent TS chat with another RTMM scenery fan from Hovercontrol who flew his whirlybird to give good 'ol VietNam vet pilot Buck a visit at his Tincup Lake Landing retreat which happens to be also one of my favorite remote stopovers because of Buck's "heavily discounted" Avgas he offers to visiting pilots and for fun, challenging practice landings.

But there's a catch: Helo pilots must do a "precision touchdown" on the landable platform atop his fuel truck. It can be tricky but certainly doable. Besides, Buck would love watching if gutsy helo pilots can do this risky "pinnacle landing maneuver" which he does with confidence almost daily with his parked MD500.. :o  Otherwise, there's a raised wooden helipad nearby and the pilot can just trot back and forth to the fuel truck if he has all day to do it.. 2 votes to make this fuel truck available for Avgas  ;D
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 08, 2014, 11:10:00 AM
Trex ... watch the "Airports of RTMM" Fuel Management Table on the FAQ page.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Trex3D on December 08, 2014, 11:37:47 AM
Awesome! Hats off to Doug & the project team!  :-*
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 08, 2014, 12:08:38 PM
Give it a try.  It has a 50 foot "footprint" taking in both the landing pad and the truck. I can make one JUST for the truck that is about 10 X 10 if that is what you want.  This one handles "both" so only one trigger needed.  Remember this is "beta" until Spud gives us a "go" for it. But you can download it from the scenery page ... I've made no notation there that the file is upgraded. See what you think, then we'll make it official if it is what you need.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Trex3D on December 08, 2014, 12:23:35 PM
I tend to agree what corbu1 stated earlier that sometimes we helo pilots don't need to refuel everytime we land on a helipad if a nearby, landable fuel truck or pump (in case of airfields or docks) can do this purpose. Besides, we love the challenge of precision landings. So just the fuel truck will do the cut..and so goes with other similar fuel truck objects in RTMM. Just my 2 cents  8) Maybe other rotorheads here would also like to chime in.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: spud on December 08, 2014, 01:24:00 PM
Tincup is ready for prime time now!!!!
 8)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Trex3D on December 08, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
Thanks a lot Spud! Buck just radioed in that he's giving away free tankful of Avgas to his first 10 visitors, you & Doug included. The rest is up for grabs  :P
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 09, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
I got ADE to make us fuel starts, so for many you can start right at the fuel box from the "create scenario" screen. You change airports and on that screen you can choose a start point from the drop down, lower right. On the new table on the FAQ page, when the names are linked, the airport is ready for download. Until then it is either being processed or is in QC with Spud. Linkage is your signal that it is ready for download.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 10, 2014, 10:51:54 PM
My first request is Stewart. CZST.  N55.56  W 129.59. We fly multiple flights out of Stewart but there is no fuel there. There is a tank there that could possibly be activated or a whole new fuel pump installed. That's for you guys to decide. Just passing along my observation.
                                       JJ

Another suggestion is a separate thread just for posting new fuel dock locations, but who knows, this may be the only one. You guys know better than I. ::)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 11, 2014, 07:01:06 PM
I would do it, but that airport has an ORBX update that people use. So I stay from those airports when adding things, they even screw up the surrounding elevations for miles. So I don't place anything within 5 miles of those anymore. I did put fuel station at all CIRP ice stations this afternoon, those are close, up in the mountains above Stewart. I won't put up a special version for the update anymore. We tried that at PAKT and are still trying to recover.  There is a Brads BBQ downriver that will have fuel soon.

Doug
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 11, 2014, 08:44:18 PM
Thanks, Doug. Good point on the ORBX enhancement. That's why you guys get the big bucks and I fly for beer. I'll continue to call 'em in when I see possibilities though. There's one in particular I have in mind, visually, an 'eye candy pump', but I'll be damned if I can remember where it was. It'll come up again. Just gotta keep flying.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 12, 2014, 07:42:12 AM
There are a bunch of them (eye candy pumps) because we used that dock object with the pump on the end often. I hope as folks fly and encounter them they will let me know on this thread. I'd like to either activate them or hang an " out of order" sign on them. I'm doing the Tongass X airports now. Some are just little docks and SPB's. After those come Are done I will start on the Brad 's BBQs. Those are naturals for fueling stations.

If you look at the table on the top of the FAQ page, it has grown rather nicely. As Spud does the QC, I'll activate the links on the airport names to the left. Step one will be getting these operational and listed, step two is figuring out how to use them for planning purposes. Ideas are welcome on that discussion.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 12, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
SPB's are big. It's sometimes very frustrating to have fuel 100 yards away on shore but you have no access to it in a float plane. Preaching to the choir here, I know. I'm just glad that you guys are on it.
                                          JJ

Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 14, 2014, 06:45:21 PM
Update by Doug and Spud

If you are watching the Table at the top of the FAQ page, you will see that is is coming along nicely and is nearing completion. Our goal is to have it completed this coming week for you.  Our initial goal was all about fuel management and giving you multiple fuel addition locations. But we also added windsocks and NDBs. Along the way, we found many details that needed correcting, and we fixed those. (Small things, like a hanger missing, a static plane too close to a fuel pump, wrong runway startup numbers, etc). Most people would not notice any of these, but we fixed them as we went.

This is how we found the rather major problem at PF01 K'meen River Bear Lodge. Rod and Steve helped us fix that one, and that is why you saw the NOTAM of the update. Rod did a complete update on this one solving the problems. You should replace that one soon if you have not already done so.

The table, although it is starting to look like it, IS NOT READY FOR USE. Don't "play" with anything below the RED LINE. Spud and I are continually changing and working on it ... we will let you know HERE and by NOTAM when it is ready for you to use.

So there is now fuel at most critical locations ... there are windsocks at all of them and some "fuel start" boxes on some. Note from the table, there were also a few locations where nothing was done, so there will be no need to re-download those.

There is one more addition you have the option of having. Notice the yellow boxes. These indicate that the NDB for that airport location is available for download in the file you will find at the bottom of the table. There is one for the PFxx airports called RTMM PFxx NDBs.zip and another for TFxx airports called RTMM TFxx NDBs.zip. "How" to install these is made clear in the readme that comes with the download. This gives you NDBs for ALL airports in PFxx and TFxx areas. If you do not want these, you do not need to download them. Some people do not feel they are realistic, but others will enjoy "flying the needle" to their next location. It is optional ... your option.

We could use your help at this point. Look at the instructions for the tables and let us know if there are any parts of those instructions that are not clear. We'll work on them until everybody understands what is needed.

Also, notice there is a TO-DO Projects list at the bottom of the table. This is where we will put your suggestions and work on them.  Many of these will be fuel pump docks that we find and upgrade, these will mostly be non-airport locations.

What we thought would be a few hours of work, literally has been some long days and nights. My thanks to Spud, Rod and Steve for their help on this project ... we solved some very interesting problems and have corrected a lot of small details. Overall, this will make all of our updated locations more realistic and more error-free.  Again, I don't feel any of these except PF01 are critical ... it's all in the details.

Doug
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 14, 2014, 10:21:25 PM
Remarkable work, and hats off to you guys that are quietly working "in the trenches" to satisfy us "Bush Junkies". Humble appreciation to all of you. Love you guys but my Bud Lite is still out of the question. Gotta draw the line somewhere. :)

                                                           JJ
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 16, 2014, 12:02:09 PM
Fuel Management Project - Home Stretch

OK, on the home stretch.  From here on out, we could use YOUR help. Keep an eye out for the fuel dock objects that we've placed in many locations. When you find one, let me know. It must either have an "out of order" sign on it or be made into a fuel trigger to deliver fuel. Also, for the helicopter folks, if you see a pad that needs a nearby windsock, let us know. We are just doing some final QC checks and we'll be finished and turn the table "loose" to you, but we will keep working on updates when they are needed.

 
Also, are there any "fuel holes" in what we've done. Long expanses that could use a fueling location. We have a new object coming that you will LOVE for helicopter and float plane fueling. We can literally place these ANYWHERE.  Personally, I'm very excited about these new objects Steve has made for the coming object library update.

So, send us your ideas, we'll try to fit them into the project list area at the bottom of the Airports table on the FAQ page.

Supplemental NDB Packages

If you look at the bottom of "Table 1 and Table 2" you will see a folder that can be downloaded and set up like a scenery folder that gives you NDBs for every PFxx and TFxx airport.  Some people will not want to do this as it is not realistic. But for others (like me), it is a lot of fun. They all seem to be working well and it is great flying the needle at low altitude (because the mountains keep you from doing a straight line) so you have to figure out how to get to where the needle is pointing. You'll see some very different scenery using the ADF.  The weather up there has been clear the last few days, so I've been flying at 3000 feet following the needle on the ADF. (I didn't know my Misty Beaver could fly that high! :-). It is nice to see RTMM from a higher altitude.  If you download and install the NDBs, if you later decide you do not want them, you just uncheck them in the scenery library or delete them.

Another side note, after all the fuel management project work ... you'll be happy to know I have now unchecked by "Unlimited Fuel" button ... and I can run out of gas, just like the real people do. I had to add the Aerosoft fuel gauge to my little mini panel. Fun to watch it fill up when you pull up to the fuel triggers.

You can click on the pic to enlarge it. The new fuel gauge is to the right. (And notice it is FULL!!)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: SkipperMac on December 16, 2014, 03:10:55 PM
Ok, I haven't flown in the Mistys for quite some time, and I haven't been in the forum either recently. I know, my bad! :(

But all this talk about fuel boxes really worries me. I mean REALLY worries me. I don't just hate the things, I absolutely, utterly and totally ABHOR the things. In fact, I hate them SO much that I've considered employing someone to write a program that would REMOVE them from EVERY file in FSX!

And then I sign in here and what do I read? Your ADDING the blighters!

Ok, someone please put my mind at rest and tell me these are only for helipads that I'll never come within a beagle's gowl of! Me and choppers don't agree, so if this doesn't affect land or seaplanes, then I'm cool since you all seem perfectly happy with this development.

And if anyone knows how to turn them off universally, I will be forever in your debt. :)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 16, 2014, 03:29:29 PM
Well too bad we can't please everybody ... but the people here wanted them, so they got them. Sorry you don't like them and don't appreciate the days of work that went into the project. None of ours are "on" a helipad, you have to fly away from the pad to "load", so landing at the pad doesn't refuel you. Perhaps if you'd been more active you could have weighed in on the discussion. Too late now, but the good news is, you can still go back to where you were flying before. Choice is a great thing.

Doug
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: spud on December 16, 2014, 03:44:02 PM
Ok we know now you hate fuel boxes in FSX but that's all I could glean from your post. 

Are you flying as in real world with adjusted fuel loads for the mission and don't want to accidently have your aircraft re-fueled if you taxi near fuel pumps? 

If so you shouldn't experiece too much trouble with these as they are limited to the area close to the fuel pumps and taxiing on the runway will keep you clear of the trigger.  Just be careful and not pass close aboard the pumps and it should not have any effect on your flight.
 8)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: SkipperMac on December 16, 2014, 03:52:13 PM
Doug, thank you for your quick reply and please don't think I'm ungrateful for all the work you and the team have done over the years. This particular development is something I could have done without, but as I already said, I'm cool with it as it seems that no-one else has been complaining. I'm happy to be in a minority of one, that's how the world works.

Many thanks for RTMM. I'll just keep avoiding refueling boxes as best I can.

And thanks to Spud who has posted while I was typing - that helps to clarify. And sorry if my Irish sarcastic humour made my post confusing.

Question asked - answer given. Thanks gents.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: ualani on December 16, 2014, 04:20:07 PM
Easy way around the "I hate fuel triggers" is if you accidentally trigger one just hit pause, reset your fuel load to whatever you want it to be and then be back on your way in 10 seconds. Or as Spud says, stay clear of any fuel pumps. My question is why do you hate them so much? How much are you willing to pay for a utility that would remove them?
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: SkipperMac on December 16, 2014, 04:35:53 PM
I like to manage my own fuel, putting in however much I choose and not just accepting full tanks. I know I can reset the fuel after it automatically fills up, but that implies that I've noted the fuel before straying into the box.

But it's no big deal - I've been avoiding them for years, I'll just keep on avoiding them as best I can. The biggest issue is when running FSEconomy which doesn't like when you suddenly get a free fill-up lol. I've no idea what a utility to disabled all the boxes would be worth, or even if its possible without messing up all sorts of other things.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: corbu1 on December 16, 2014, 05:51:36 PM
Doug, Spud, Rod and Steve
 thank you so much for your hard work msking the fuel boxes, working windsocks and NDB's possible in RTMM!!!
Every time I'm completly overwhelmed what you guys create for the RTMM World. Thank you again!!
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: ualani on December 16, 2014, 06:25:21 PM
Thanks Klaus...all I can say is that you 'aint seen nothin' yet!

Steve
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: spud on December 17, 2014, 08:55:54 AM
Skipper,
one way around the fuel triggers is simple.  If you already have the location in your sim just do not download the updated files and things will be as before the fuel triggers were added.  However, if you download the files for a location you do not have and it has fuel trigger added then pump avoidance is the only thing you can do other than re-adjusting fuel load if you accidently fillup.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 17, 2014, 08:58:54 AM
Also, within the folder with fuel added, each is a separate bgl file clearly labeled as "trigger"... Just delete that bgl.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: SkipperMac on December 17, 2014, 06:04:30 PM
Spud, that was my plan anyway. No need to update with a facility that I don't need.

Doug, there's the solution! If the trigger is in a separate file, I (or any other weirdo like me lol) can just delete it. That's brilliant. Thanks!

And best wishes of the season to all the developers and to everyone who thinks the triggers are an early Christmas present  8)
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: stiletto2 on December 17, 2014, 08:54:47 PM
Recommend you add an .off to the end of trigger file so you retain it in case you every want to enable it......just a thought.

Also, there are not separate fuel trigger files for some airport locations where an entire airstrip is defined using ADEX type .bgls.  The Fuel box is included in the ADEX .bgl.    PF01 is an example of this.

Rod
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 19, 2014, 07:41:24 PM
Juneau Harbor. Found the perfect eye candy pump at Juneau Harbor, 5Z1. It's in the marina closest to the Juneau Intl AP. My plane is sitting at N58 18.31, W134 25.97 @ 336. Could that get a trigger? If there's an ORBX issue then how about a new pump at Taku Lodge? Otherwise there is no float plane fuel for the Juneau environs that I know of.
                                                      JJ
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 19, 2014, 08:14:33 PM
Ooops! Forgot to attach the pic for Juneau Harbor.

Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 19, 2014, 08:50:42 PM
OK, now you've given one to us that hasn't got an answer yet. A trigger on that rascal would take about 2 minutes ... but where would we put the bgl for it?  All that scenery in that area is ORBX, and I'll not put a bgl into their stuff.  What we do in a case like this is put the trigger into a close by RTMM scenery that we've made.  For instance i just put a fuel trigger at CZST for you (coming soon) with a pump object I put there by the fence (near one you know about). It is hooked into a new Brad's BBQ for Stewart, 2 miles away and all documented nicely (also about how to take it out if people don't want it).  So there, we are attaching something a bit of a distance away, but it goes into OUR RTMM scenery folder. As for Juneau Harbor, we don't have anything in this area. So we would have to "place" something.

This is one of the "reasons" for the Brad's BBQ restaurants. We can put them almost anywhere to add to a scenery like this, and make those things happen within "our" scenery package that we can add on top of a location like you've pointed out.  Most of the Brad's now are at the beginning or end of a "river run". We had no starting places for them, so we would use the lat/long and start someone at the Brad's then go up the river.

In this case we "could" do it using that strategy of nesting the fuel trigger inside a little scenery package of our own... see the attached pic. We have a Brad's now that would fit there nicely. But is it realistic for the location? It doesn't hook directly to the orphan pump, and that pump looks like it belongs to the marina. The way we would fix that is, if we put a Brads there with a fuel pump and fuel trigger (and windsock), we could hang an "out of order" sign on the marina pump.   This is a "could be done" project. My question is, would anybody but you and me know it was there and would ever use it?  In summary, it is "can do" ... but is the reason compelling enough?  The "fun" of these things is figuring out how to "beat" the software and make it happen ... this is how I'd do it. These are the kinds of discussions that are good to share.  But I'd really rather go after any fuel pumps WE have put in that we haven't triggered. Lord knows I don't want to fix a thousand ORBX fuel pumps. :-)

Doug
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 19, 2014, 09:12:46 PM
Per Rod's Comment:  We only have FOUR of our airports now that have ADEX bgls for the airports that "hold" fuel triggers, NDBs and Windsocks. There likely will be FIVE (one coming shortly). You DO NOT want to play with the ADEX file ... trust me, it is like playing with explosives! :-) So all the rest of our airports, and probably those new ones built in the future, will be done NOT using the ADEX file for these addons.  This way, YOU can select the options you want rather simply. If you look at the coming Kasaan_Upgrade that will be available soon, you will see four files in the scenery folder for that location (see below). Notice how they are CLEARLY labeled ... you can tell which one is the windsock or NDB or Fuel Trigger. On the locations where these options were added separately and not in the ADEX, all are as clearly marked as these ... very easy for you to see.

In this case, if you do not want the fuel trigger, you simply go into the scenery folder, find the bgl with the fuel trigger in it ... in this case Kasaan Fuel Trigger.BGL.  You change the BGL to OFF, becoming Kasaan Fuel Trigger.OFF.   That turns off that feature, the fuel trigger will no longer be active. To reactivate it, you simply change OFF to BGL and it is turned on.

Rod has given us the advantage of being able to add these separately, which gives YOU the option of using them or not.  Based on some earlier content in this thread, that would be a good strategy to please everyone.  Hope that clears it up.


Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 19, 2014, 09:55:15 PM
Then how about putting a new fuel dock at Taku? It's just around the corner from Juneau and a great jumping on/off base for the glaciers. It's already an RTMM scenery which might alleviate the "where to put the .bgl file". Just my thoughts. My plane is at N58 29.42, W133 56.56 @16.
                                               JJ
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 20, 2014, 09:07:12 AM
Done. There is a little fuel pump now at Taku.  There is also a fuel trigger for that orphan pump at Juneau Harbor. Notice how they are LABELED in the scenery folder for Taku.  Again, for anyone not wanting these, don't download the update or turn the "Fuel Trigger" bgls to "OFF".  Look also at Table III on the top of the FAQ page, you'll see TAKU there now, click on the link in the right column and the update downloads.

Doug
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: stiletto2 on December 20, 2014, 10:33:07 AM
Just one clarification....if you do decide to turn a .bgl file off, it is better to add .off to the end of the file name so that you retain the .bgl extension to remind you what the file was in the first place.  So for example, change test.bgl to test.bgl.off   

Rod
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on December 20, 2014, 10:43:19 AM
That's a good idea, Rod.  "We" know, but we shouldn't assume others do. Thank you.

D
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on December 20, 2014, 04:33:26 PM
Thanks Doug. Way cool. First round is on me.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: sddinnh on January 04, 2015, 09:45:04 AM
If it helps, for those airports without fuel, there is also a gauge floating around out there call refuel.cab.  It can be added to any pop-up panel and it increases the fuel by 25% of the tank capacity with each push of the button.
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on January 22, 2015, 09:13:58 PM
Hi guys. Been flying around the McCarthy area. That is out in the sticks as you know. Before I knew it I was down below %50 fuel. I thought a great place for a pump was 15Z, McCarthy. I don't know how do-able that is as far as AFCAD's and such, and as far as I know it is not part of an RTMM scenery package. But some of the surrounding airstrips are. Just food for thought.
                                        JJ

Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on January 22, 2015, 10:07:33 PM
JJ ... ok, its on the To-Do Projects list at the bottom of the top table on the FAQ page. When we have a spare moment we'll get on it. Easy to add the fuel.  I'll announce in a NOTAM when we get her done.

Doug
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: Doug on January 23, 2015, 10:46:25 AM
JJ - The new Fuel Box is operation at McCarthy, 15Z.  This one has been put into the Last Resort bgl. So if you download that, the "fix" is there for your. This was a good suggestion, there's no fuel for miles around!

Doug
Title: Re: Fuel Management Project for RTMM
Post by: jsapair on January 23, 2015, 03:54:58 PM
Cool! You 'da man, Doug.