Author Topic: Carenado's 185  (Read 15980 times)

One-Eye

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Carenado's 185
« on: March 09, 2011, 09:08:43 AM »
I'll bring my questions here, away from the enhancements thread.

Still looking at the 185 I can't, for the life of me, see evidence of any rearward extension of the flaps.

This really is a no-no selling point for me. Cessna have used their patent slotted flaps forever - even the Bird Dog has them and when the flaps are deployed, they first slide backwards along a track and then down. You can see from the attached photos, that the rearward movement actually opens a gap so that airflow can accelerate over the flap upper surface. This improves the boundary flow and allows greater flap angles.

All flaps out pictures I have seen of the 185 look flush with no gap - i.e. no movement rearwards. Carenado refused to believe these when I commented about this on their 172.

The difference between these and Fowlers is that a Fowler flap is usually completely covered by the wing upper surface and extends out when lowered. Fowlers move further rearwards. Also I'd say that Cessna's aren't true slotted flaps, but more a combination of slot and Fowler. There is a good RW debate about them here:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/70299/

[attachment deleted by admin (old)]
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

spud

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2011, 09:15:31 AM »
Chris,
I forgot to post when I checked my C185 the other day, sorry 'bout that.  When I zoom in close to the flap and watch the extension there is certainly a very slight movement to the rear when the flaps are extended in the Carenado model.  It is not much but then it isn't much on the real airplane either.  Although not very noticeable Carenado has modeled the 'Para-lift flaps of the Cessna.  The rearward movement is only at the beginning of the the flap travel in the sim and from behind you can not really tell it occurs.  Look at it from a front quartering view and you can see it plainly, although slight as I said.
 8)
Later,

Spud

One-Eye

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 09:32:42 AM »
On the 172 you get around 8 square feet extra.

I sat in the Airbus flying club hangar flattening batteries watching the movement and it's shots like this review picture:

on the flightsim.com review that worry me when compared to photo #3 above.

...and of course, Carenado's attitude toward me when I informed them.

Oh well.

8 square feet. If the flaps are each something like 6 feet long, then 12 feet of flap total for 8 sq feet area increase will mean a movement somewhere in the order of around 8 inches beyond the trailing edge during the first 10 degrees or so of flap extension.

Generalised figures - it varies between planes.
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

spud

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 10:54:06 AM »
Chris,
I'm limited to the keyboard for view at the moment so can not get a better angel but here a couple of screenies that show the flaps on the C185 do move to the rear when deployed in the Carenado model.





 8)
Later,

Spud

One-Eye

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2011, 11:01:43 AM »
Very good shots and most definitely convincing. Chalk that up to "Carenado have improved"

So now - just to be a right PITA...

Why is the Bush 185 cheaper than the "standard" 185. Does one need the other or something odd like that.

Sorry to be a pain guys, but I have been so bitten by Carenado planes that it's going to take a lot of advertising work on your parts...

:D
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

spud

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2011, 11:24:17 AM »
Chris,
no you do not need the 'Regular' C185 for the bush package.  Just be aware that there is no stock tire version in the bush package, Tundra, (1) Ski, (2) Float, (2) and Amphip, (1).   :)

I agree that Carenado exterior models are only average the VC's by and large are pretty good.  I'm mostly in the cockpit during a flight so the exterior is not as important.  While A2A and PMDG etc. are outstanding exterior models they do cost a wee bit more than most Carenado aircraft.  ::)

I only had one Carenado A/C before for FS9 and that was the T-34.  Had to have it because I taught many a nugget how to aviate while a Naval Flight Instructor in that airplane.  So when bush flying reared it's head I got the bush package.  I figured 6 models for less than $20 was a pretty good deal.   ;)

I do know that the AIR file on a lot of their airplanes SUKS big time compared to real life but they fly nice most of the time. ;D  That's what most folks seem to want.  The AIR and .cfg files available at Bushpounder's site are very well done.  The only thing I found was that the springy 'Land o' Matic' Cessna gear can actually throw the airplane on its back if you are taxiing on undeveloped (off airport) terrain.  By altering the aircraft.cfg file as I posted today it calms down fine but you have to keep the speed down or your gonna see the world from a funny angle.   :-[
 8)
Later,

Spud

One-Eye

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2011, 11:39:56 AM »
Ahhh, no worries about seeing the world from funny angles - I was cleared for (some) aerobatics and instrument fligh in my RW glider flight days.

Nowadays I still think the Christen Eagle is the bee's knees as far as "point and push" aerobatics go. (Don't worry - a "Misty's Display" version is planned and then you'll see me doing aeros over Totem Bight again.)

As for this 185... I am slowly being pushed that way. 300 horses is tempting (er... "are")
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

spud

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2011, 05:59:42 PM »
"I am slowly being pushed that way. 300 horses is tempting"

Just remember it eats a lot of hay!
 ::)
 8)
Later,

Spud

One-Eye

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 02:48:04 AM »
18 dollars wasted. The 185's flaps DO NOT move like the real ones. Sorry. No points whatsoever.

...and more importantly - no paints. Just look at the photos of the flaps above - there is a fixed track with a banana slot in it. Cessna's flaps move back along this track on roller bearings during the first deployment and then rotate down. That's the amount of rearward movement that I expected.

P.S. Carenado got it right with the 182 RG, 206 and 210 in FS9 models - I still have them in FSX with the "conversions" and I have just compared them all.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 03:07:04 AM by One-Eye »
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

One-Eye

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 03:17:32 AM »
...and besides - where's the "blank texture" that was promised and why, oh why, oh why is Carenado not complying to the FSX dds texture format? and why, oh why, oh why have they still not made use of the texture.cfg functionality?

...and why the *&$# do I fall for it every time?

...and btw - how come no one noticed that the "anniversary" livery for the 172 was missing the top part of the stripes where the side fuselage texture wraps to the (single mirrored!) top fuselage half texture?

The answer is gullibility - I believe what others say of Carenado in their reviews and raves.

Mind you, I believe what everyone says about my paints too... and I really do know better there.
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

One-Eye

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 03:34:48 AM »
About the only FSX model that seems to have got Cessna's flap mechanism right is the FSX C208 Caravan.

I knew there was a special reason for adoring that model, despite other considerations.

Aha! Here you go... http://www.aviation-forum.com/Thread-Everything-You-Wanted-To-Know-About-Flaps

Scroll down the page a bit - there is a video of Cessna flaps in action (amongst several others)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 04:27:44 AM by One-Eye »
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

GrahamP

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 05:07:43 AM »
Interesting link, Chris.  I learned quite a few things there.  Thanks for that.
Graham

Wildbird

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2011, 12:22:37 PM »
...and besides - where's the "blank texture" that was promised and why, oh why, oh why is Carenado not complying to the FSX dds texture format? and why, oh why, oh why have they still not made use of the texture.cfg functionality?
You'll find it here: http://www.carenado.com/CarSite/Portal/index.php?accion=update

Regarding .dds, that could be because of the quality loss. Even dxt5 mucks up textures.

Sorry the C185 was a disapointment to you Chris. I know I'll keep on flying it untill the day A2A or Realair comes up with a bush plane.  :) (yeh, I've got the Cub)

But why are you guys so picky about Carenado stuff, yet still fly and paint default and aerosoft aircraft?

One-Eye

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2011, 01:50:16 PM »
...

Regarding .dds, that could be because of the quality loss. Even dxt5 mucks up textures.

Sorry the C185 was a disapointment to you Chris. I know I'll keep on flying it untill the day A2A or Realair comes up with a bush plane.  :) (yeh, I've got the Cub)

But why are you guys so picky about Carenado stuff, yet still fly and paint default and aerosoft aircraft?

Thanks for the paintkit link - the sales blurb indicates that blank textures are "included". I don't want to get into semantics, but I know what included means to me.

What follows must not be taken as "rant". I feel that I must clear up a few misconceptions about FS aircraft addons. The following is based on many years experience in simulated flight. Read or ignore - I am merely trying to present factors for the cognoscenti to understand or learn from.

DDS DXT5 has a compression that is less lossy than the FS9 extended BMP DXT3. FSX should have no problems with DDS DXT5, after all, it is the favoured image compression in FSX. Then read the SDK - oh, no need. After all, a lot of devs don't bother either otherwise the Carenado stuff would also follow SDK naming conventions. (Yes - the cynic in me speaks).

Why be picky on Carenado over the default stuff? The default stuff is technically freeware on price comparison and Carenado is relatively expensive payware for the quality that has been sold us. Also, Carenado have been made aware of the flaps issue in their FSX models and despite the fact that their FS9 Cessnas had "correct" flap action, their modellers are incapable of adding the double cam action to their FSX fleet. The FSX Caravan manages to get more accurate detail on the one texture sheet than Carenado on six sheets.

Why did I comment about the texture.cfg idea? It's a excellent method to reduce filespace. There's planes that fill half a GB on users' hard discs - but with sensible use of the config, would only need a third of that disc-space, tops.

The quality of some Aerosoft aircraft is way better - and as for the Aerosoft Beaver and other models, please believe me, the ones I beta tested I was equally harsh on. The Bushhawk has not just good performance, the flaps are accurate and the performance figures were tested under real world atmospheric conditions as well as ISO and the fuel burn, power, acceleration, take-off and landing distances over 50 foot obstacles are accurate. I know - I spent a lot of time in consultation with Found Aircraft to get their data and test results under different conditions.

Then there's David Rowberry's UL - excellent with no interaction from me. The Aerosoft gliders were built by a RW glider pilot and the performance is excellent. The Catalina is also very good. I actually disagree with Aerosoft and Aerosoft people on a few things, but they have the best performing aircraft on the whole. Yes - I have plenty of criticism on their Beaver. The FSX version of the Dornier also leaves a lot to be desired (although the FS9 version is undoubtedly the most accurate FS model in almost 30 years). Other planes that let Aerosoft down in their move from FS9 to FSX are, I agree, their Supercub, their Katana and the Piper PA31. All good in FS9, all less than mediocre in X. But at the price still relatively good. (has anyone actually spotted the modelling and mapping errors on the Do27 yet?) And yet... all the "Aerosoft" planes were made by non-aerosoft developers. Aerosoft "merely" sells on behalf of many developers. Just like FSaddon and simmarket and all the others. The even sell Carenado planes...

But when a developer ignores (and continues to ignore) feedback from the public, then that is my reason for being more picky than usual. It's not that the Carenado issues can't be fixed - they can, and relatively easily at that. The Found Air Bushhawk flaps suffered the same issue - Thorsten Reichert listened. Animating the flaps and creating a correct rear wingspar format did not take him excessive time. Other devs that listened to mapping critiques have also shown me that mapping issues are easy to fix - most notably LIC and their Cristen Eagle. Kev remapped the wings to allow asymmetrical paints at my request and almost as fast as he answered my e-mail.

I do not claim perfection as my right. I am by no means that good. But I know what FSX is capable of and I know both theories of flight - I learnt Bernoulli and I teach and preach Newton. I have been a teacher of the theory of flight and I am an aircraft engineer. I try to get things as right as I can and I know that I am by no means the most knowledgeable on any of the subjects.

And yes, I have been on betatests where faults have got through despite my claims. Beta testers aren't perfect and don't get paid. Yes, they may well get a copy of the model free, but when you think that beta testers often put many dozens of hours into their efforts, then fifty cents an hour and less is nothing - the electricity costs us more...

And finally, there is no professional set of standards for flight sim modelling - which really is a pity, because until there is, we'll continue to suffer lack of accurate scale, performance, detail, function etc. on almost every new FS model that hits the market.

Price? The RPG faction out there and the GT5 players and the EA supporters pay upto (and sometimes more than) $50 for a game.

I am an evangelist for better standards, but nobody wants to see the emperor's new clothes.
All the best,
Chris "One-Eye" Brisland aka EagleSkinner aka "Dances with paintbrushes"
Check out my msfs 2020 videos on YouTube (Christopher Brisland)

spud

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Re: Carenado's 185
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2011, 02:34:55 PM »
Chris,
I guess I do not know exactly how much rearward travel the other FSX airplanes you mention exhibit compared to the C185 in question.  As I said previously and my screen shots show there is a "slight" rearward movement of the flaps on extension and results in a slotted flap.  I know the movement is not as much as the real aircraft but from what I observed it does move to the rear at the start of extension but not nearly enough.
I got the thing because there is no freeware C185 for FSX that I have found that works worth a darn.  There are a couple of FS9 port overs that are unflyable.
 8)
Later,

Spud